WHY shoving beats limping w/ less than 10 bb

[TGxHUSSLE]

being on the short stack is always a hard situation you just can't sit around and wait for aces because most likely it won't come so when you get that gut feeling go for it.

[TGxHUSSLE]

any two cards can hit so i say shove when ever you get that feeling from with in.

[jayyy27]

I just wanted to give a shout out to Jason for putting something in a post that has some substance. Good work.

[madjek]

i agree with most sentiments, very nice to see a post that invokes thought.

Issues i have with op's figures:

first, we are talking about 10 bb's, so you don't have a lot of time to wait for a hand, so QKo, imo , isn't best example, i don't think too many are going to argue that you would shove that. I would say the question is do you shove hands that aren't 48% ave, but can hit a flop, like lower suited connectors, if i see a lot of limped pots and i'm in late pos. , i might try to see a cheap flop even ss'd

and second, at 10 bb's, if there are some big stacks at table, i don't think you are going to steal 64% of the time, big stacks will defend their blind against a small stack often imo.

That being said, i agree with op that it is better to shove than limp ss'd, just think there are always exceptions.

[TheHaversham]

Math doesn't lie, and there are unexploitable shoving ranges as well as calling ranges for about any situation. I know players who simply have a chart they consult. Just reading the chart is sometimes an eye-opener for many solid players, to realize that in general they are too tight at the wrong times, too loose at others.

All around good info, tho.

[chadherczeg]

I agree that shoving beats calling anyday, but you left out another move, the Stop and Go. Maybe you should do the math on raising 1/3 of your stack and then shoving the other 2/3 after the flop no matter what comes. The equity in this move is much better because it allows you to make a judgement call whereas shoving is a straight gamble with negative EV in many situations. AND I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT THIS IS ONLY FOR STACKS THAT ARE 9-12 BB (or 6-8 M if antes are in play) AND ONLY IN GAMES/SITUATIONS WHERE PEOPLE ARE SMART ENOUGH TO THINK BEFORE ACTING (this excludes freerolls and micro games in early to mid stages). Anything under this amount is in a preflop shove necessity and in "loose" games preflop shove is also the positive EV move. For example, you raise 1/3 of your stack (3.3-4 BB) preflop with the intention of shoving the flop "after judgement" with any hand you'd shove with. 7's or better, A-J through A-K & KQ. 90% of the people willing to call 1/3 of someones stack knowing they are committed are the same people willing to call a shove. The difference being, this move allows two positive EV situations and one "anti-negative" EV situation.

1. Middle pairs Vs. two overs - By Stop and Go, it allows you to judge the flop. e.g.. 9-9 vs (two paint/A card range) flop comes K-8-2 rainbow. Only 25% of the ranged hands hits the K (AK, KQ, KJ), which means that 75% of the time you create fold equity with a shove after the flop, when preflop shoving would have gotten a call 100% of the time and given them 5 cards to hit instead of 3. e.g.. same hands, flop comes K-Q-J. You can now make a judgement knowing that they will not fold to your bet with this range and attempt to check it down or fold. e.g.. same hands, flop comes 8-7-4. Post flop shove protects you from the last two cards against this range because fold equity allows the player to get away without the possibility of lucking out their over (which would happen 24-26% of the time or more depending on suits).

2. Under pairs vs. over pairs. Say for example you have 7-7 and your opponent has 9-9. A shove gets you in preflop as a 4-1 dog. Stop and go allows you to judge the situation. you have 7-7 and the flop comes K-10-4, your shove post flop is going to get 9-9 off the hand most of the time (now this only falls into occasions where a passive preflop player or set miner is the person against you preflop. Most strong players are going to reraise you with a pair over 7-7) which brings me to the "anti negative" e.v. situation

3. Under pairs vs. over pairs. The plight of the preflop all in. By playing a stop and go, you can get away from 7-7, 8-8, KQ, and other mid range power hands when the tight players behind you reraise shove. These people would have called your shove regardless, but now you can judge their range before making a final tournament life decision.

I emphasize that these plays are not for the faint of heart nor are they something that can be done in every tourney. As I said above, freerolls and loose tables you are better off going with jasonv's recommendation. Also, in tourneys where you have a loose image or think someone will call you with inferior hands for 1/3 of your stack but won't call your shove, then depending on your hand you may want to rethink your strategy.

I guess my point here is that poker is not black and white and is very situational. Even short stacks can take advantage of situations if played properly.

[Bowdeyga]

Shoving does beat limping. But there is merit to minraise/calling. You can even minraise bluff with a >10bb stack. The fact that you are minraising at all with that size stack is HIGHLY suspicious and will usually get a lot of folds. It looks super strong. That being said, if you are going to do this you have to balance and actually minraise with your super strong holdings too.

[docdrew]

Very good post! You are absolutely correct on everything stated. Limping in most situations is going to be a negative EV play in general, so it really makes it that much more important especially SS to be aggressive with most hands not easily dominated while in position. Not only do you create a situation for your opponent to make a mistake but you increase fold equity as well which is a larger part of the game than many people realize. Great job and thanks for doing the math so everyone can get a true idea of the concept.

[JohnnyDeepStacks]

When do we play?

[wwwin]

I think raising vs limping in online poker is overrated...in low stakes you wont make many fold with a raise.