Strategy Only Section in Forum?

[tta91690]

Does anyone else think it would be a good idea to have a game-specific strategy only sections? The Cash & Tournament Discussion section is filled with tons of garbage (things that have nothing to do with in-game strategy) that I would really appreciate not having to wade through. I think it would significantly increase the value of this forum, facilitate hand analysis, and increase the overall level of play for all PokerOwned members. Please post in this thread if you would like to see the same.

[tta91690]

Ideally, people would have actual amounts or HHs but this happened in the 7 pm (PST) $40 PO freeroll on Carbon earlier today and Im too lazy to pull up the actual numbers when I just want to illustrate my point.

Blinds: 50/100

My stack: slightly over 4k

I raise 3x UTG with KK
Folds around to BTN who calls - approx 3k behind

Flop: 3s - 4d - Jc
I cbet 300
Villain raises to 600

How would you proceed?

[dimebags7]

im no good at this but can i just say maybe the guy has top pair and thinks he will win. see this often. however, may have two pair playing say J4
Won a huge hand in this same series at PO with KK. Had others raising me figured im beat but all in and I win. So... interested in to see what some say here. Keep this bumping.

[abenz419]

i'd probably call the 300 more and see a turn at the very least... it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for him to have flopped a set of 3's or 4's, or even J's but with no reraise preflop i think the jacks are a little less likely. Plus like dimebags said, he could have flopped top pair with an ace kicker and thinks he's ahead and that you missed and c-bet trying not to show weakness. I'm curious, what actually happend?

[tta91690]

My thinking: I had previously raised and taken down a few pots with standard cbets; however, given the skill level (or lack thereof) or most players in freerolls, and the size of his raise, I figured he was not playing back with air. If he had a set, why raise on such a dry board, especially when I have been cbetting consistently? Given all of this, I shipped it in. He had AJs, and binked an A on the river.

[tta91690]

More interesting question: Do you think he is simply playing his cards, and if not, what is he putting me on?

I'm inclined to think its the former. If he thinks I'm bluffing, why raise IP (in position) with TP (top pair) on such a dry board? It would be much more profitable to just let me barrel the turn.

Also, I don't like calling there abenz. I'm OOP (out of position) and his range is so wide there's a lot of cards that can beat me, so I'd rather not have to play the guessing game on the turn/river. Since you said you'd call there, let me pose this hypothetical:

What are you going to do if an A hits the turn? how bout any 5-10 (he could easily have any medium pocket pair)? Even QJs is in his range?

[abenz419]

I think your right about him playing his cards rather than trying to put you on a hand. It's hard to say exactly what i'd do there having not seem him play at all and not knowing already how he plays, that's why i said at the very least I'd call the 300. If I thought he was a solid player and had actually hit a set even though i'm not getting pot odds there I might take a chance (assuming you weren't small stacked since you didn't push pre or post flop) and see if the turn is a king and if not I've already put him on a hand that has me beat so I can fold there if he were to bet the turn as well. If I assumed he was your average limited experience free roll player then I probably would have put him on high pair with an A,K,or Q kicker (yeah I know thats not very specific but your average inexperienced player would have easily played any 3 of those hands there). After making that read, there is a good chance I'd re-pop it but how much would depend on my gut feeling and how lucky/unlucky I felt. If you go all in on your average noob free roll player your more than likely gonna get called and then he could hit another jack or like you said hit an ace on the turn and make 2 pair and that would cripple you. Also, if you come over the top of his raise he might just push all-in and your in the same situation as if you had pushed. This is why I said I'd at least make the call because then if your a solid player you leave yourself the ability to fold if the turn comes in what you believe to be his favor.

[tta91690]

Were never folding here, so saying you would at least call is pretty meaningless (not trying to hate on you, just attempting to further the analysis). For simplicity, lets so i had 4k, and he had 3k to start the hand. After the flop, the pot is 750, I bet 300, he clicks it back (now the pot is 1650). If I call, he has 2100 with a pot of 1950. Thus, if I check the turn (remember all those scary cards we talked about) were giving him maximum fold equity on a turn shove. My all-in is to extract maximum value from TP with a good kicker, which I perceive to be the top of his range (aka hands he isn't going to fold). Shoving also prevents me from ever getting bluffed off the best hand, a reasonable scenario if we call or raise less than all in, and an ace or J comes.

[abenz419]

well that all depends on how much you trust your read... If you put him on AJ (top pair with top with top kicker) and the turn comes ace or jack then you should be able to fold that without feeling you were bluffed off the best hand. Like we both agreed, he is probably playing his hand vs. trying to put you on a hand, so if you shove your almost sure to get a call, and then if the scenario of an ace or jack comes your unable to get away from the hand and that leaves you with only 1k left. Yeah you would have to get unlucky for him to hit 1 of 5 outs there, but my thought process here is just that it doesn't matter if you flat call or re-raise any amount, your not gonna get him off of his hand. So, yeah while you might not be extracting maximum value, you are minimizing the damage that can be done... make sense? Now lets say you feel as though he is a solid player capable of folding if he feels he is beat and you make the same read and put him on AJ, then shoving there isn't as risky simply because there is the chance that you can bet him off his hand vs. the noob that you know is going to insta-call no matter what.

[tta91690]

Attempting to put people on one specific hand WILL lose you money in the long run. "Reads" are all about expectation versus what you perceive their RANGE (as in not just one hand) is, I don't really care what he has specifically in this hand.