Limping with less than 10BB?

[jasonv12]

I've seen this play quite a bit on certain PO FR's. I rarely do it myself, so I was wondering what was the mentality behind this sort of play. Maybe some experts on the limp play can chime in.

When shorstacked I tend to move all in at this point because I can increase my stack by more than 10% if I simply pick up the blinds. Only a monster hand or a monster stack can call 10BB pre flop. If I get called well, at least, I will have a hand that I thought was good to begin with, and I can double up.

I'm sure I'm missing something. Perhaps the reason this play exists is because its a psychological thing, it will keep aggressive players from raising with rags, and it also protects your investment, since you know only a monster can raise you since your liable to put them all in. Thus you can safely fold.

Maybe if you get a calling train, and hit the flop. Someone will pay you off.

The thing I don't get is, why would you waste more than 10% of your precious stack on a hand you don't want to get all in pre-flop. Your only going to see a precious few more hands. When you finally do pick up a great hand you will have less chips to double up with.

Then I thought. Well maybe this is a form of trap. Limp in with AA-JJ. AK-AJ. Get weaker hands to see the flop, and get paid off. I suppose the worst thing that can happen is you let K2 see a flop for free to suck out on your pocket Queens. No biggie right? Because another monster hand is probably waiting around the corner.

It's almost never a good play.

[ogKamehameha]

I limp shove with jq all day long baby!!!!!!!!! weeeeeeeeeeeee

[rghy2]

I'll admit, I limp in with less than 10bb. However, I will only limp in with hands that I am prepared to go all-in with. So if someone raises me I will go ahead and shove most of the time. This goes against proper strategy, but I believe in the 5-10 range I still have enough bbs to see 2 flops if I need to. So when I hit 10bb, I tighten up my range, limp sometimes and see a flop cheap. If I hit the flop or sense weakness I'll shove on the flop. If I think I'm beat, I still have another chance. 10bb is still enough in a shove that most other players won't call unless they have a super strong hand. By limping and then shoving on the flop I can build up the pot a little more. Once I hit 5bb is where I'm gonna shove anything playable.

[lorenz0wns]

I'll admit, I limp in with less than 10bb. However, I will only limp in with hands that I am prepared to go all-in with. So if someone raises me I will go ahead and shove most of the time. This goes against proper strategy, but I believe in the 5-10 range I still have enough bbs to see 2 flops if I need to. So when I hit 10bb, I tighten up my range, limp sometimes and see a flop cheap. If I hit the flop or sense weakness I'll shove on the flop. If I think I'm beat, I still have another chance. 10bb is still enough in a shove that most other players won't call unless they have a super strong hand. By limping and then shoving on the flop I can build up the pot a little more. Once I hit 5bb is where I'm gonna shove anything playable.

good strat good strat i'm gonna have to incorporate this into my arsenal doe

[jonnyboy]

I think it just depends what stake your playin the small buy ins might be better off making a hand first

[jasonv12]

I'll admit, I limp in with less than 10bb. However, I will only limp in with hands that I am prepared to go all-in with. So if someone raises me I will go ahead and shove most of the time. This goes against proper strategy, but I believe in the 5-10 range I still have enough bbs to see 2 flops if I need to. So when I hit 10bb, I tighten up my range, limp sometimes and see a flop cheap. If I hit the flop or sense weakness I'll shove on the flop. If I think I'm beat, I still have another chance. 10bb is still enough in a shove that most other players won't call unless they have a super strong hand. By limping and then shoving on the flop I can build up the pot a little more. Once I hit 5bb is where I'm gonna shove anything playable.

You reasoning is good, but I'm not sure this wins in the long run. Here's the problem: you're opening yourself up to a lot of luck, by which I mean you will have to get lucky in order to come back from a short stack. Whereas by open shoving you will need to get lucky if called BUT you also have the added equity of when everyone folds and that right there can get you back in the game with 0 risk whatsoever. And with 5-10bbs, losing one pot, even for a limp can be enough for you to lose all your remaining fold equity.

You really need to balance a)equity when called and b)likelihood of being called and when a shove feels profitable, just go with it when you're this short.

Shoving is unexploitable.

[marsd]

im never limping in with less than 10bb--- I think that is a terrible play-- put your chips in the middle

[rghy2]

You reasoning is good, but I'm not sure this wins in the long run. Here's the problem: you're opening yourself up to a lot of luck, by which I mean you will have to get lucky in order to come back from a short stack. Whereas by open shoving you will need to get lucky if called BUT you also have the added equity of when everyone folds and that right there can get you back in the game with 0 risk whatsoever. And with 5-10bbs, losing one pot, even for a limp can be enough for you to lose all your remaining fold equity.

You really need to balance a)equity when called and b)likelihood of being called and when a shove feels profitable, just go with it when you're this short.

Shoving is unexploitable.

This is the basic strategy I follow, but I will still shove in the 5-10bb range depending on the situation. Really strong hands ep and good but not great hands when I'm in late position are both times I will shove. I also feel that since the "correct" play is to start shoving at 10bb, more players are likely to call a wider range against this typical play. When I follow my own strategy I become harder to read. I actually believe that more people fold to my shove at 5x then the "book" player who shoves at 10bb because they have already made the assumption that I am a nit that will let myself be blinded out waiting for a premium hand, thus I must have a premium hand.

I am going to have to get this some thought though. I watch a lot of people get knocked out shoving with 8-10 bb, but if they double they have a better chance of making a deeper run than I would waiting to shove.

As far as losing all my fold equity to a limped pot, I typically only limp in unraised or min raised pots and after that I'm either shoving or folding to a raise. I won't be calling and chasing anything down which still gives me flop fold equity and I'll take down a bigger pot at that point.

I think shoving short stacked is very exploitable, but that's just my opinion. If you had a large stack, you would only bet/raise 8-10bb with very strong hands or in very specific situations. If you're shoving short stacked you've opened up your range making it profitable for other players to open up their calling ranges and still be in a +ev spot against the short stack.

One other thing I have to consider though is that my BR is still playing very fast paced tournaments where the levels are putting everyone short stacked fairly quickly. I think my strategy works well for fast tournaments, but when you get to slower tournaments with a much longer blind structure it must take more bbs to have some fold equity. There is a huge difference in how these tournaments play out. If the avg stack is only 15-20bb, you still have fold equity at 5bb since that is 1/3-1/4 of most players stacks.

I'm kinda rambling here, but I hope I've explained my logic ok.

[PokeYourFace]

In turbo games ( PO FR) playing down to 5 BBs is not a bad idea, its just also not a good idea. I ONLY play down to 5 BBs if i'm on a money bubble or have a LLB.

I will confirm that OTHER ppl limping is scary in a turbo because they are obviously NOT limping atc when they have roughly ten bigs.

you'd be better shoving AK with 20-30 bigs than waiting til 5 bigs in a turbo (unless u have reasons, like min cashing or an LLB)
I will admit i have won many of PO games grinding out an LLB to 5 bigs, and then turning into a shoving mad man after my LLB is out, it is just not a good spot to be in

Lets also keep in mind that we dont want to be min casher's... we want to be WINNERS!

[MovingFlea]

I shoved 10BB in early-middle position yesteryear with KQ offsuit in the freeroll. I got instacalled by AQ by the person to my left. Maybe I should have limped?

I don't think so.

There are only 5 hands in all of poker that had my hand dominated. In the unlikely hood that I do get called there's still a good chance its a flip. I get 20BB if i win and have a good chance at beating the whole field.

Limping is only acceptable if you try to squeeze your way into the money but since the pay is top heavy it doesn't make sense to limp. I mean even 1st place isin't that great of a payday.