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[MIGO14]

I think everything what helps to make it safer is welcome..

[Zab]

(if not paid their account goes debit)

This can't be.. because then we're at the same place we were.. Me basically insuring your loans.

If the people don't pay back the loans, you are out of luck (Go break their legs!)

The only problem with your 'bad loan insurance idea' is that its ripe for abuse. I'll explain

User #1 makes an account, brand new.. user #2 loans him 10,000 points. He gives the user the points, use spends them and never comes back again.
User #2 files his claim, he gets back SOME points every single time he does it. See what I mean?

[Zab]

I am trying to get thoughts down on how to protect everyone..

The basic problem is NEW PLAYERS asking for loans. So I am thinking a couple things

#1 New players (with less than 5 feedback) can only ask for up to 145 point loans
#2 Players with 5+ feedback can ask for up to 500 point loans

Instead of basing it on time, base it on feedback (Maybe a combo of both)


Now the question is, HOW to design the "Put the loan out there, and accept it" so both parties know what is going on.

I think the system should work in favor of the Sharks (People putting out the loans)

Sharks put out the loan figures and the required juice or payback %. You loan 145 points, I expect 155 points in 3 days or else......................????

I need to know what happens, what we do with the or else. Just negative feedback?


My initial vision is setup like this:

Loan Shark: Zab Points Loaning: 145 Interest: 25 Points Days to Payback: 5 REPAY LOAN: 170 Points (Click button to repay)
You as the Loaner, would instantly get 145 points deducted, even before someone accepts
Whenever someone says "Yes I want to take out a loan" You have the option to accept or deny. Once you accept it, the loan goes away and you have to relist it.

Now what I think from here, if you PASS the 5 days, you go into "Default" You will instantly go -170 points + 10% default penalty

A new button would pop up (In Red) Repay Defaulted Loan: 187 Points

We list all loans
We list all loans in progress
We list all defaulted loans

** Cannot get another loan until you repay your old loan, so essentially 1 loan at a time **

[Daytradin]

This can't be.. because then we're at the same place we were.. Me basically insuring your loans.

If the people don't pay back the loans, you are out of luck (Go break their legs!)

The only problem with your 'bad loan insurance idea' is that its ripe for abuse. I'll explain

User #1 makes an account, brand new.. user #2 loans him 10,000 points. He gives the user the points, use spends them and never comes back again.
User #2 files his claim, he gets back SOME points every single time he does it. See what I mean?

First my suggestion was that the defaulted borrower's account goes debit but never mentioned that the lender be credited at that point, hence PO is not not "in the same place we were". In the entire post it was never suggested that PO back anything.

Second, you have used an example of 10,000 points which is 10x the limits in the example of 600-1000 points. So I do get the point that hanky panky could occur but somewhat blown out of proportion.

[Zab]

First my suggestion was that the defaulted borrower's account goes debit but never mentioned that the lender be credited at that point, hence PO is not not "in the same place we were". In the entire post it was never suggested that PO back anything.

Second, you have used an example of 10,000 points which is 10x the limits in the example of 600-1000 points. So I do get the point that hanky panky could occur but somewhat blown out of proportion.

I just have to figure out a way to freeze the users points, or whatever he earns goes back to the person he borrowed points from FIRST

[Daytradin]

I am trying to get thoughts down on how to protect everyone..

The basic problem is NEW PLAYERS asking for loans. So I am thinking a couple things

#1 New players (with less than 5 feedback) can only ask for up to 145 point loans
#2 Players with 5-10 feedback can ask for up to 300 point loans
#3 Players with over 10 feedback can ask for any amount of loans

Instead of basing it on time, base it on feedback (Maybe a combo of both)


Now the question is, HOW to design the "Put the loan out there, and accept it" so both parties know what is going on.

I think the system should work in favor of the Sharks (People putting out the loans)

Sharks put out the loan figures and the required juice or payback %. You loan 145 points, I expect 155 points in 3 days or else......................????

I need to know what happens, what we do with the or else. Just negative feedback?


My initial vision is setup like this:

Loan Shark: Zab Points Loaning: 145 Interest: 25 Points Days to Payback: 5 REPAY LOAN: 170 Points (Click button to repay)
You as the Loaner, would instantly get 145 points deducted, even before someone accepts
Whenever someone says "Yes I want to take out a loan" You have the option to accept or deny. Once you accept it, the loan goes away and you have to relist it.

Now what I think from here, if you PASS the 5 days, you go into "Default" You will instantly go -170 points + 10% default penalty

A new button would pop up (In Red) Repay Defaulted Loan: 187 Points

We list all loans
We list all loans in progress
We list all defaulted loans

I believe this thought process "I think the system should work in favor of the Sharks (People putting out the loans)" is somewhat backwards. The lender should not be the one posting the offer as I personally would not loan to just anybody. A borrower does not likely care who puts up the points in as much as the lender definitely should care who they are lending to. I do undertand that a lender can refuse to lend but like in the banking systeme world wide the borrow comes to ask for a loan or apply for it. Furthermore, why should a lender have to put up the points before a loan is consummated? There may be other uses of those points until a borrower is found and a deal is struck....if there ever is one. The beaten path now in process is not people going into the forum and saying "hey i got a 1000 points to lend, who needs it"...it's the borrowers trying to find a lender...as it should be.

Lastly, PO is the decider and enforcer of "or else". This is a system without recourse as a lender. There is no way to reposess points unless PO does it for you. The lender cannot "foredlose" on the borrower or kick him off the site...only PO can.

[Zab]

Because the way the system works here. Suppose you put up a loan for 150 points, then you no longer have points. Its not easy for the system to know.. HEY THIS GUY HAS NO POINTS NOW HE CANT LOAN YOU POINTS.

So I need to take out the point in advance.

I think the person LOANING the points should set the terms in advance, hence why he puts out the offer. If its to crazy, then you dont HAVE to accept the terms.

You will get a list of people who are 'applying' for your loan.. you choose one (Or none) and move on and post a new loan if you like.


You think it should be the other way around.. Person asks for a loan, then the person loaning sets the terms.. Then person who wants the loan clicks accept?

Guess I could do it that way..

[Daytradin]

I just have to figure out a way to freeze the users points, or whatever he earns goes back to the person he borrowed points from FIRST

Every user has a new field, "bad loans outstanding (BLO)". This account is credited for the lender as the borrower's account is debited during a default. When the defaulted borrower's "BLO" has a negative number, any earned points decrement this negative value before their available points balance goes positive. The newly earned points transfer to the lender and his BLO account is reduced. Additionally the BLO account would list the bad loans and borrower's making up the balance.

[Zab]

Ok Daytradin.. You had me change the entire design at the last minute

Here's the conversation with my programmer, you guys get to see the specing process :P

[3:18:43 PM] Zab: User says.. I NEED A LOAN FOR 150 POINTS
[3:18:43 PM] Zab: so you create it
[3:18:52 PM] Zab: "Create New Loan" Click Button
[3:19:00 PM] Zab: Loan Amount - 150 points
[3:19:08 PM] Zab: we show your feedback rating
[3:19:34 PM] Zab: (Lets use the same feedback rating from marketplace, so if you get + or - feedback in THIS or Marketplace, its shown at both places to make it easy)
[3:19:39 PM] Zab: With me so far?
[3:19:43 PM] Programmer: yes
[3:19:58 PM] Zab: Peter 150 Points 67% Feedback
[3:20:05 PM] Zab: Now i come through.. ok.. I want to loan you points
[3:20:08 PM] Zab: Here are my terms
[3:20:09 PM] Zab: I click LOAN POINTS
[3:20:17 PM] Zab: I put in the terms
[3:20:17 PM] Programmer: yes?
[3:20:56 PM] Zab: Loan Amount: 150 (This is instant deducted from your account) Interest: 15 Points Days to repay: 5 Total Loan Amount: 165 Points
[3:21:10 PM] Zab: so then the person who is REQUESTING the loan sees
[3:21:19 PM] Zab: ok.. someone has offered to loan me points
[3:21:25 PM] Zab: do i like their terms?
[3:21:33 PM] Zab: if they click accept then the loan is on
[3:21:35 PM] Programmer: ok
[3:21:39 PM] Zab: if they click deny the points are refunded to the person
[3:21:42 PM] Zab: if they click accept
[3:22:01 PM] Zab: they are then brought to "Loan in Progress" Which shows Repay Loan: 165 Points
[3:22:15 PM] Zab: they have 5 days to pay it back (from the agreement)
[3:22:21 PM] Programmer: ok
[3:22:22 PM] Zab: if after 5 days they DONT repay the loan
[3:22:27 PM] Zab: it goes into "Default"
[3:22:30 PM] Programmer: 5 days is always?
[3:22:36 PM] Zab: No the person loaning
[3:22:39 PM] Zab: sets those terms
[3:22:43 PM] Programmer: ok
[3:22:47 PM] Zab: if they dont repay within the time, they go into DEFAULT
[3:22:50 PM] Programmer: also interest ?
[3:22:54 PM] Zab: Default = Total Loan amount + 10%
[3:23:00 PM] Zab: so now they owe 165 points + 10%
[3:23:13 PM] Programmer: ok
[3:23:17 PM] Zab: From then on they cannot ask for ANYMORE loans
[3:23:31 PM] Zab: if they have 1 loan out unpaid OR default they cannot ask for anymore loans until they repay
[3:23:42 PM] Programmer: ok
[3:23:43 PM] Zab: Users can leave feedback once the loan is complete OR defaulted
[3:23:52 PM] Programmer: ok
[3:24:00 PM] Programmer: no refunds?
[3:24:05 PM] Zab: no refunds
[3:24:06 PM] Programmer: if user dont pay at all ?
[3:24:07 PM] Zab: this is on the users
[3:24:11 PM] Zab: see that was the problem
[3:24:13 PM] Programmer: ok
[3:24:16 PM] Zab: users were loaning points
[3:24:18 PM] Zab: then click DISPUTE
[3:24:25 PM] Zab: so i was basically insuring their loans
[3:24:34 PM] Zab: user woudl go -2000 points and never come back
[3:24:40 PM] Zab: so id get screwed
[3:24:43 PM] Programmer: ok
[3:25:05 PM] Zab: #1 New players (with less than 5 feedback) can only ask for up to 150 point loans
#2 Players with 5+ feedback can ask for up to 500 point loans
[3:25:18 PM] Zab: ** Cannot get another loan until you repay your old loan, so essentially 1 loan at a time **
[3:25:29 PM] Programmer: ok

[Daytradin]

Because the way the system works here. Suppose you put up a loan for 150 points, then you no longer have points. Its not easy for the system to know.. HEY THIS GUY HAS NO POINTS NOW HE CANT LOAN YOU POINTS.

So I need to take out the point in advance.

I think the person LOANING the points should set the terms in advance, hence why he puts out the offer. If its to crazy, then you dont HAVE to accept the terms.

You will get a list of people who are 'applying' for your loan.. you choose one (Or none) and move on and post a new loan if you like.


You think it should be the other way around.. Person asks for a loan, then the person loaning sets the terms.. Then person who wants the loan clicks accept?

Guess I could do it that way..

The "accept loan" button/function will have to look at the lender's account balance before transferring the points to the borrower. Seems pretty straight forward to me but I am not familiar with internals of the system.

I am purely considering how I transact loans now...and then trying to conceive programming to accomplish it. Typically some one will say I am looking to borrow 500 points and I ask, "what and when are you gonna pay me back?" If it is interesting enough to me and I am comfortable with the borrower than I do the deal. Else I may just say "not interested" or I want X to do the deal.