REAL hand examples, insight into my play

HAND 1
I am in the middle of a PO freeroll. I am in middle position and pick up QTo. 3 people limp ahead of me and I raise it up to 7X the BB. I get two callers from the limpers. I have position.

The flop comes Jack high with low cards, they both check it too me. I check back. The turn is just another low card, but now there's 3 to the flush. They both check once more. I finally bet, about half the pot. It's a pretty big pot now and I get one caller. I'm disappointed because so far this hand has cost me a lot of chips and all I have is high card queen.

The river is a Q. My lone opponent goes all in, he almost has me covered. Normally I would take some time with this hand before calling, but I was feeling feisty that day and almost snap called without really thinking about it. I vaguely remember thinking, well I think he missed his flush draw or something.

The funny thing is he did miss his Queen high flush draw. His hole cards read QJ. His hand is two pair.

I can fold top pair, the pot just got too big, too quickly. It was bigger than either of our stacks. My thinking got clouded and the pressure got to me. Folding would have left me short stacked in a couple of minutes. I hate being short stacked, It seems I always bust out once I get less than 10BB. My subconscious figured, if there's any chance this call is good, then I am well on my way to placing in the money, if not then I will probably bust out anyways. I was obviously wrong.

Go ahead, give me some of your wisdom PO.

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HAND 2


aceydj Posts Ante 100.00
rustillthere Posts Ante 100.00
XXGraspingStrawsXX Posts Ante 100.00
RLC12345 Posts Ante 100.00
Seich01 Posts Ante 100.00
rustillthere Posts SB 2000.00
XXGraspingStrawsXX Posts BB 4000.00
RLC12345 Folds
Seich01 Folds
aceydj Folds
rustillthere All In 17626.00
XXGraspingStrawsXX Calls 15626.00
rustillthere Shows 7h,3s
XXGraspingStrawsXX Shows 6c,Ah
rustillthere Won 39752.00 from Pot 1 with Ten High Straight

The Pot was 24k by the time it got to me. The call would have cost me 15k. I had 5 BB left and I knew he was a very loose player so I called him knowing I would have 2BB if I lost. Good or bad?

I wouldn't think about this hand too much. It suck being short stacked. Still, you shouldn't avoid it at ALL costs. Just play straight forward and don't worry when things go wrong. It will happen again and again.

When you are short stacked it's hard sometimes to know when to make a call to move all in. You have to watch the other players to see how they are playing and then make your move.

In a PO game (or low stakes) just fold hands like Q10 is my advice. Hands like that are called reverse implied odds hands. This means even if you hit your Q or your 10, you will likely be beat by the same pair, but with a better kicker.

The trick to beat a field is often to play against the grain of the field. Playing fewer hands than everyone will put you on the flip side of these exact types of situations.

Q10 isn't a bad hand, but it is a trouble hand and being forced to raise 7x while already fairly short is a disaster waiting to happen. Remember, pots grow exponentially. 2 bets into a pot makes for less than half the size of the pot as 3 bets. This is only inflated when all the calling station fishes force you to raise 7x to play a hand. Just make a disciplined fold here imo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jasonv12

In a PO game (or low stakes) just fold hands like Q10 is my advice. Hands like that are called reverse implied odds hands. This means even if you hit your Q or your 10, you will likely be beat by the same pair, but with a better kicker.

The trick to beat a field is often to play against the grain of the field. Playing fewer hands than everyone will put you on the flip side of these exact types of situations.

Q10 isn't a bad hand, but it is a trouble hand and being forced to raise 7x while already fairly short is a disaster waiting to happen. Remember, pots grow exponentially. 2 bets into a pot makes for less than half the size of the pot as 3 bets. This is only inflated when all the calling station fishes force you to raise 7x to play a hand. Just make a disciplined fold here imo.

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I don't always play QT, but when I do, I raise.

Yea your right Jason, my mistake was raising pre flop, I should have just called it. I could have gotten away from it due to the kicker being bad and not having any chips invested in the pot anyhow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MovingFlea

Yea your right Jason, my mistake was raising pre flop, I should have just called it. I could have gotten away from it due to the kicker being bad and not having any chips invested in the pot anyhow.

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I know it looks like a pretty hand, but just think about how happy you'll be when you hit top pair and get no action and think about how mad you'll be when you hit top pair and get stacked by AQ or something. Looking ahead can help you save a lot of chips in these spots.

first of wtf are you thinking raising 7X bb with q10 off.this was your first mistake! and a big one,idk how much was in the pot on the turn...but you should have just checked for pot control......and the fact that you have q high lol if you were gonna bet the turn you should have just jammed.Then when river comes you are priced in b/c of your turn bet...this hand was just plaed very poorly all around.Just my opinion

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jasonv12

I know it looks like a pretty hand

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really???? Q 10 off is a pretty hand to you lmao....this hand is the ugly duckling of the poker deck

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Originally Posted by TacTownGOON253

really???? Q 10 off is a pretty hand to you lmao....this hand is the ugly duckling of the poker deck

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I said it looks like a pretty hand, not that it is a pretty hand. :)

q 10 is just a recipe for disaster OP got what he deserved for playing it!

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Originally Posted by TacTownGOON253

q 10 is just a recipe for disaster OP got what he deserved for playing it!

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Stop being so blah. He posted this because he wanted advice, not to be told how horrible he is. And he has like a 32% itm rate or something, so he must be doing something right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TacTownGOON253

first of wtf are you thinking raising 7X bb with q10 off.this was your first mistake! and a big one,idk how much was in the pot on the turn...but you should have just checked for pot control......and the fact that you have q high lol if you were gonna bet the turn you should have just jammed.Then when river comes you are priced in b/c of your turn bet...this hand was just plaed very poorly all around.Just my opinion

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I raised that much because that is how much you raise. 3X the BB + 1 BB per limper. This gives everyone bad odds to call. Maybe my mistake was playing the hand in the first place, but playing it aggressively is considered an acceptable move since I have position on the limpers. Your hole cards are the least important cards on the table, the opponents hole cards and the board cards are much more important.

Now If they fold, great, I win. If I get one caller I can most likely push him off the hand with ease, good. I got two callers, not very good, I get the second worst outcome, multiple callers, still not a death sentence. THEY made worse plays than I did, he called a 7X the BB raise with QJ out of position. Since we don't know what each other have, I have a strategic advantage. By having position, and showing pre flop strength.

I check the flop because a Jack is in the dead center of their range, one of them has to have had it. If it was all low cards, I'm betting.

I would have folded on the turn, except they both checked twice. I mean the guy had top pair and a flush draw, AND he saw me check the flop, if he doesn't bet it now then he just wont bet anything. If I raise pre-flop, you can bet your ass I'm not going to give it up so easily. If I allow them to see one more card for free, they may hit a pair and beat me, or even bluff.

I think my only serious mistake was calling the river bet, of course I only did so because I had top pair, but still a mistake nonetheless. I'm actually proud of everything leading up to there. I admit it, my river call was stupid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MovingFlea

I raised that much because that is how much you raise. 3X the BB + 1 BB per limper. This gives everyone bad odds to call. Maybe my mistake was playing the hand in the first place, but playing it aggressively is considered an acceptable move since I have position on the limpers. Your hole cards are the least important cards on the table, the opponents hole cards and the board cards are much more important.

Now If they fold, great, I win. If I get one caller I can most likely push him off the hand with ease, good. I got two callers, not very good, I get the second worst outcome, multiple callers, still not a death sentence. THEY made worse plays than I did, he called a 7X the BB raise with QJ out of position. Since we don't know what each other have, I have a strategic advantage. By having position, and showing pre flop strength.

I check the flop because a Jack is in the dead center of their range, one of them has to have had it. If it was all low cards, I'm betting.

I would have folded on the turn, except they both checked twice. I mean the guy had top pair and a flush draw, AND he saw me check the flop, if he doesn't bet it now then he just wont bet anything. If I raise pre-flop, you can bet your ass I'm not going to give it up so easily. If I allow them to see one more card for free, they may hit a pair and beat me, or even bluff.

I think my only serious mistake was calling the river bet, of course I only did so because I had top pair, but still a mistake nonetheless. I'm actually proud of everything leading up to there. I admit it, my river call was stupid.

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Good analysis, you're clearly playing better than your opponents, although I would challenge you to try to think for yourself. Sure the 3x + 1 per limper is deemed standard, but the PO games are not a standard format. By which I mean, the players play a wider range, aren't able to reason, the format is turbo, stacks are shallow, etc.

Play optimally for beating your opponents, rather than the "book" play. That's a big tip for beating games like this.

Just my two cents, good luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jasonv12

Good analysis, you're clearly playing better than your opponents, although I would challenge you to try to think for yourself. Sure the 3x + 1 per limper is deemed standard, but the PO games are not a standard format. By which I mean, the players play a wider range, aren't able to reason, the format is turbo, stacks are shallow, etc.

Play optimally for beating your opponents, rather than the "book" play. That's a big tip for beating games like this.

Just my two cents, good luck.

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Not that hand. My river call was on the level of whatever is worse than a donk.

Sometimes I play super tight, and sometimes I loosen up. It depends on whether or not I'm tired. I do tend to do better by playing tight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MovingFlea

Not that hand. My river call was on the level of whatever is worse than a donk.

Sometimes I play super tight, and sometimes I loosen up. It depends on whether or not I'm tired. I do tend to do better by playing tight.

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We all make mistakes. Just learn from them. :)

Sorry Flea.was not trying to bash you or nothing. btw ow many BB's did you start the hand with? and how much was the sb/bb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TacTownGOON253

Sorry Flea.was not trying to bash you or nothing. btw ow many BB's did you start the hand with? and how much was the sb/bb

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sorry? i dont deserve sorries. but I accept your "apology" nevertheless.

We started with about 30-40 BB. I don't remember the size of the blinds, just the number of blinds i had. It was mid game

You should've just checked the turn. And if you get short stacked, so what, it's a turbo, at one point, almost everyone is considered short stack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WILD

You should've just checked the turn. And if you get short stacked, so what, it's a turbo, at one point, almost everyone is considered short stack.

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Almost everyone LOSES. See the connection? lol jk. Yea I should have checked the turn, I just didin't know that at the time. the fu---- was slowplaying me.

playing that hand was the first mistake. In a PO game playing Q10 off is not a hand I would get involved in unless it was a short table or the FT. Sorry, you started this hand all wrong. Then raising 7x BB was the second mistake. Better luck next time.

how many people would have made the call on hand 2?

Well, I see many problems here, tbh.

First off, your raise is ill-timed for the situation. If an early limper is trapping you, your raise will never get a fold. Additionally, many people limp with hands better than yours, such as AQ, KQ, and QJ, not to mention pairs lower than TT. Consider that QTo is a hand that plays very well in multi-handed pots, but loses value considerably against one or two opponents - assuming they are playing only somewhat correctly. So to raise to 7x here does very little to define opponents' hands, and puts you in the uncomfortable position of playing a bloated pot with a marginal hand.

The ONLY thing you have here, really, is position. Position is a powerful weapon, but unless you're in the blinds it's not likely to change in later streets. My point is that if you are going to wield the weapon of position, there is no need to swell the pot before doing so. If position is going to win a pot for you, your cards are irrelevant, but so is the need to make the pot larger.

Which leads to the issue you seem concerned with: pot size. In these freerolls, stack sizes dictate much of the action. For example, A8o is a weak hand with 100+ BB's, whereas if you only have 8 BB's, A8o can be a monster. A 7x raise, pre-flop, with Q-hi, is begging for trouble unless you feel there is a good chance you will take the pot down there. But in freerolls, that is incredibly unlikely. Most bad players make mistakes on later streets, but once they have committed much of their stack to the pot those mistakes are actually "less-bad." So when you have enough chips to overcome a small mistake, there is no need to exaggerate that mistake by swelling the pot and justifying even more bad play from your opponents. (For example, in limit poker almost ANY draw can be justified after the turn if the pot was capped pre-flop and/or on the flop.)

Keeping the pot size manageable is good advice for almost any player at any stage. Your hand strength and opponents are good barometers of how big you want a pot to be. Do you find yourself playing a lot of big pots with marginal holdings? Perhaps you are over-valuing position. If you're worried that some donkey is going to call a smaller bet and beat you, I would submit that there are plenty of donkeys who would also call a larger bet and beat you. Control what you can control. Is it better to lose 3-5 BBs to a donkey, or your whole stack?

Once you've put in 7x, what is your plan if someone behind you raises again? Or if one of those limpers re-ships? You've put yourself in a fairly uncomfortable position. In your description, you sound as if the pot swelled by itself, but the size of the pot is a direct result of your huge pre-flop raise. You can punish limpers AND still maintain a manageable pot.

The turn bet is not disastrous, altho since the pot is so large by that point any bet you make puts you in a vulnerable spot. When you et called there you should be praying to NOT hit the river so you can fold easier. But alas, when the river hits you (that's what's called a kill-card) you erase action til now from your memory and simply call on your hand strength, which is still pretty weak. Consider that you've indicated that you have a big hand pre-flop, but then checked a small-texture flop and bet another small turn card. What hand are you selling at that point? I would have likely played my QJ exactly as the Villain did here, since it is likely even my top pair is no good. But on the river, when I make a 2nd pair, I'm suddenly HOPING my opponent has AA or KK and cannot fold.

My advice? Until you get a better grasp on the concept of smallball (if not for yourself then for how to defend against it vs others), you should just be folding QTo pre-flop in this spot.

Hand 2: I don't see folding any A in that spot, tbh, even if you know your opponent to be tight. The fact that he is loose is actually an argument for folding, except you are so short.

Just for fun, to see an interesting dynamic, the next time you have 15BBs, re-shove into ANY raiser with 30-40 BBs. You will likely be surprised at the weakness of their holdings as well as the success rate of this move.

Counter-intuitive to some, at the effective stacks in Hand 2, both yours and his plays are completely justifiable, as the cards become irrelevant.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jasonv12

Good analysis, you're clearly playing better than your opponents, although I would challenge you to try to think for yourself. Sure the 3x + 1 per limper is deemed standard, but the PO games are not a standard format. By which I mean, the players play a wider range, aren't able to reason, the format is turbo, stacks are shallow, etc.

Play optimally for beating your opponents, rather than the "book" play. That's a big tip for beating games like this.

Just my two cents, good luck.

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Yes, I agree. You played like a "Harringbot." When a smallballer sees you raise like that, his mouth begins watering, fyi.

"I raised that much because that is how much you raise. 3X the BB + 1 BB per limper." <---this is sort of silly if you think about it, and extremely exploitable. The sizing of someone's raise is one of the greatest indicators of hand strength/playin style I know of, at least online. If you have a pattern, or if you are doing something because "that's just what you do," then you can bet keen players are onto you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheHaversham

Hand 2: I don't see folding any A in that spot, tbh, even if you know your opponent to be tight. The fact that he is loose is actually an argument for folding, except you are so short.

Just for fun, to see an interesting dynamic, the next time you have 15BBs, re-shove into ANY raiser with 30-40 BBs. You will likely be surprised at the weakness of their holdings as well as the success rate of this move.

Counter-intuitive to some, at the effective stacks in Hand 2, both yours and his plays are completely justifiable, as the cards become irrelevant.

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nah trust me ppl dont fold here in these games. i would need a hand to do this with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MovingFlea

Almost everyone LOSES. See the connection? lol jk. Yea I should have checked the turn, I just didin't know that at the time. the fu---- was slowplaying me.

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Which you induced. Consider that he puts you on the strongest pre-flop hand, AA. Flop comes J-high, he may be pondering a check-raise to get you off pairs below J and/or AK/AQ. If you continue, he knows where he's at. But you CHECKED the flop. That was another mistake, and now his hand has value as a bluff-catcher. You're not folding overpairs, so no real need for him to bet the turn, but AK/AQ and TT and lower would almost ALWAYS bet, so no real need for him to fold. If he bets out instead of check-calling, he gives you the opportunity to shove, which puts him in an awkward spot with top pair and flush draw. It makes much more sense for him to keep the pot under control (see what he did there?). By the river, he can be fairly certain to be ahead, so the biggest bet he thinks you'll call is justified.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheHaversham

Which you induced. Consider that he puts you on the strongest pre-flop hand, AA. Flop comes J-high, he may be pondering a check-raise to get you off pairs below J and/or AK/AQ. If you continue, he knows where he's at. But you CHECKED the flop. That was another mistake, and now his hand has value as a bluff-catcher. You're not folding overpairs, so no real need for him to bet the turn, but AK/AQ and TT and lower would almost ALWAYS bet, so no real need for him to fold. If he bets out instead of check-calling, he gives you the opportunity to shove, which puts him in an awkward spot with top pair and flush draw. It makes much more sense for him to keep the pot under control (see what he did there?). By the river, he can be fairly certain to be ahead, so the biggest bet he thinks you'll call is justified.

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He's just luckky as shit I didin't have AQ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ. I've tightened up my game lately, so I wont be making this mistake next time with QT.

Well, if you have it all figured out, why do you ask for advice?

How about YOU trust ME? It's a freeroll, what's to lose?

Rarely are you going to get a better hand than yours to fold, but there are enough freerollers hoping for a min-cash that you'll see this play succeed. What you are not getting, I suspect, is the math of the situation. If they are only calling your 15 BB shove (1/2 to 1/3 their stack) with the top 25% of hands (which is generous), the math is clear that you will win from behind often enough to overcome the times you are behind.

I've only been around PO a little over a month or so, so I understand if you don't think I know what I'm talking about. My results, however, speak for themselves, methinks. One sign of a player who's not overcome that "hump," is to be too results-oriented. Make the right decisions, let the results come. Don't 2nd-guess a good decision just because an idiot got lucky.

Well, if you consider that if you had AQ, AA, or KK you would also have lost (did he not make two pair on the end?). True, you may have flopped top set, or rivered a set, but as played that is quite unlikely.

And I'm sorry to hi-jack...next time I'll read the entire thread before commenting so I can consolidate.

If you understand that 10BBs is ATC territory for an unraised button, you should be able to grasp the 15BB shove into 35BBs as well. It's virtually the same thing.

And while it's true that sometimes you need to push the smallest edges, remember that when you get it all-in with an 85/15 edge, you are going to lose 15% of the time. If the field is so weak that you know you can consistently pummel them, then perhaps risking getting busted 15% is worth avoiding. An idiot on this hand will still be an idiot on the next hand, and luck runs both ways.