playing JJ with an ace on board

[donny111]

i final tabled a $3 pot 1/2 hold em 1/2omaha hi/lo tournament the other day and this hand came up.
i have about 30k in chips with blinds at 400-800.
i have the button and the cutoff raises and i pot it to 6000 with JJ.
the cutoff for all intensive purposes seems like a tricky but solid player, he has definitely done some bluffing and raised quite a few pots.
the flop comes down A42 with 2 hearts. villain checks and i bet 5000, villain check raises all in, and we have about the same starting stack.

you have 19,000 left...WHAT DOES THE VILLAIN HAVE?

PS: dont tell me you fold because he obviously has an ace!

instead, tell me what you think he has and why u think he has it

[Singertime63]

the only thing he would slow play is trips or a/x
why would he let u get commited before going all in with his flush draw. it would be better for him to push in position

[joefine]

Would have to say it depends on which 2 cards are suited? assuming it's a full table and it's folded to the cutoff, his opening range is pretty wide but calling the re-raise narrows it a bit. being it's pot limit i would put him on either A10 or above or some kind of suited connectors with get postflop potential or large PP.

The postflop action I think rules out large PP with the exception of AA but I would expect a 4-bet preflop with AA therefore unlikely he has AA. KK, QQ would have a hard time check-shoving.

The shove postflop is indicative of a monster hand (trips but AA, 22 and 33 unlikely or straight but 35 is unlikely too given the flat of a 3-bet) or monster draw where he wants to win the pot now but has enough outs if he gets called he doesn't mind putting his money in. Therefore I would put him on something like 56 of hearts - where he has both a flush and straight draw. Or if it's the 42 that's suited then maybe Ax suited to heats where he has tp but a redraw to the nut flush.

Also I think it's tough to bluff that spot. What is he representing if he is bluffing? If he's representing a big ace it has to be AK and since you 3-bet preflop a big Ace is well within your range as well.

PS - next time can you give us the pot pre/post flop. i'm too tried to figure it out and pot-limit is all about pot-odds

[sprocketdog]

easy fold, If ace doesnt beat, Tan a multitude of other hand can, why go out looking dumb against A 2

[donny111]

thoughts runnings through my head when he check shoved. i automatically ruled out AA and for that matter any pair jacks or better because he would have 4 bet me 100% given the image i had on him. i also ruled out AK AQ bc i was also quite sure given how i had seen him play that he would have 4 bet. the only logical aces i could see him having were A8-AJ. but the problem with these hands that was going through my head was that he has to be scared of me having AK OR AQ in this specific spot so i didnt see how he could raise. furthermore,A4 AND A2 were out of his range in my head because he wasnt the type of player to call out of position with these hands. going through this analysis qiuckly during the 1 min time bank i surmised that he could have air or maybe sumthin like KQ hearts. remember i told you he had shown down some bluffs and was quite capable of bluffing this spot i thought. i made the hero call because i could not put him on any ace. as it turned out i was right, but instead he had 22! i failed to consider this hand pretty much altogether but even looking back dont really understand the call. playing out of position with 22 facing a 3 bet to me just seems silly. with nearly every flop excluding that with a 2, hes going to check/fold. as it turns out i was right that he didnt have an ace and looking back on this hand i only regret not thinking about one important factor. WAS THIS PLAYER CAPABLE OF BLUFFING OFF HIS WHOLE STACK?

[thinknhurtz]

oh and the other tendancies of the players involved, but really, that should go without say. some people will play any suited ace and once you have that information your decision is easy. maybe i shouldnt give away all my valuable strategies though ahahah

[joefine]

thoughts runnings through my head when he check shoved. i automatically ruled out AA and for that matter any pair jacks or better because he would have 4 bet me 100% given the image i had on him. i also ruled out AK AQ bc i was also quite sure given how i had seen him play that he would have 4 bet. the only logical aces i could see him having were A8-AJ. but the problem with these hands that was going through my head was that he has to be scared of me having AK OR AQ in this specific spot so i didnt see how he could raise. furthermore,A4 AND A2 were out of his range in my head because he wasnt the type of player to call out of position with these hands. going through this analysis qiuckly during the 1 min time bank i surmised that he could have air or maybe sumthin like KQ hearts. remember i told you he had shown down some bluffs and was quite capable of bluffing this spot i thought. i made the hero call because i could not put him on any ace. as it turned out i was right, but instead he had 22! i failed to consider this hand pretty much altogether but even looking back dont really understand the call. playing out of position with 22 facing a 3 bet to me just seems silly. with nearly every flop excluding that with a 2, hes going to check/fold. as it turns out i was right that he didnt have an ace and looking back on this hand i only regret not thinking about one important factor. WAS THIS PLAYER CAPABLE OF BLUFFING OFF HIS WHOLE STACK?

if he did have KQ of hearts you are technically behind on the flop and a marginal favorite against any flush draw. IMO i think it's a tough spot to bluff given the preflop action and you are really just flipping, at best, given his range.

[donny111]

if he did have KQ of hearts you are technically behind on the flop and a marginal favorite against an open ender or any flush draw. IMO i think it's a tough spot to bluff given the preflop action and you are really just flipping, at best, given his range.

ya the play was definitely marginal theres no question. the problem was in my head AIR was part of his range. i thought it was possible given how he had been playing that he could make the play hoping i have any hand but an ace and get me to fold. and after i put in the money i already had i didnt mind flipping against KQ given the size of the pot (about 44k) im getting over 2 to 1 being just about even money.
no doubt i made the wrong descision, the only part i regret is not asking myself the question i posted at the end of my earlier comment. in addition, i woulda been left with 20 bbs 4 handed, which is basically equvalent to 10 or less at a full table since there gonna be coming around much quicker.

[Singertime63]

roflwhatamoron

[donny111]

roflwhatamoron

thin line between genius and donkey. if i think i got the best hand ill go with it. some people dont have the heart to call in that spot even if they think there oppponent is bluffing.