MTT play with KK hole cards.

OK, this is something I have been trying to determine for a while now.

Lets say it is the early stage of a micro MTT. I get KK dealt to me pre-flop in a late position (on the button). At a 10 person table there are 2 calls before me and I raise 3x the big blind. One person calls, the second person re-raises 2x my initial bet. My gut reaction is to assume that I am dealing with 2 other people with top 10 hands and that I am not going to be able to to much to push them away apart from following up with an all-in push. I push all-in, person 1 folds and person 2 calls and shows AA.

Based on the scenario above, if I get KK and somebody has AA, it instantly means I am going to be either crippled or knocked out of the tournament. Without flaming me, what am I doing wrong and what can I do to save some of my stack from this sort of devastatingly bad luck?

Kings and Queens are notoriously bad to players on Carbon Poker, I might even start a thread on it.

I'm not trying to get into a discussion about Carbon per se. I am more curious about the hand itself, not the client in which you receive the hand :). There are already enough "<insert poker site name here> is RIGGED!1!!".

Any opinion on how I should play the hand, regardless of poker client? What if this was a live game?

AA vs KK vs is one of those times were you are suppose to get it pre. Simply stated its #1 vs #2. Folding #2 pre is what is often referred to as fearing Monsters Under the Bed. Weak tight play.

People shove hands other than AA, all those hands you have crushed. JJ+ range is a fairly abc type players range. Any suited ace or any two paint is a fairly common range in micros.

For every one time they specifically have AA there is at least 10 other times they will not. Therefore calling allin pre with KK is +ev.

well, i think u said it as in the early stages of a micro MTT?? if so,,, why not just see flop first a tthat point,, instead of pushing all in?? since so early tho?? then maybe based on flop and bets after it,, u mite be able to fold,, and not lose that much then, maybe, posssibly:)

I mean, its interesting honestly, i have actually been in a normal po tourny where someone folds aa
pre flop
AA!!
he said that he did it because aa gets cracked, and he was to close to ITM
but really? he only had like 5 bb

You have to get it in there. Thats the play with the most value in the long run. Most of the time you're dominating. This one time you just got a cold deck. Happens to everybody.

Hey I'm all in witk Kings if I'm walking home, I'm on my way.

Just my 2 cents, You have to remember it is a MTT tourney and you know the plan is to get deep and cash or possibly win it. So going out early is not the plan, getting dealt K-K and you did a perfect standard raise to see the other player come over that then I would tell myself do I want to double up now and risk my tourney life this early or should I just take the high road and save the fight?

I have seen too many times people going all in with K-K early in a MTT tourney only to get crushed by A-10 because the flop dropped an Ace. laying K-K is tough like Wagon said.

I had a scenario 2 nights ago in the PO tourney. I was dealt K-K and I was ahead but I noticed that the board was setting up good for the other player who obviously was chasing his flush. By the river the player bet first and I knew and layed them boys down. I showed and player was impressed i layed them down. I did make it to the final table and ended up cashing for $2.00

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gefishy

OK, this is something I have been trying to determine for a while now.

Lets say it is the early stage of a micro MTT. I get KK dealt to me pre-flop in a late position (on the button). At a 10 person table there are 2 calls before me and I raise 3x the big blind. One person calls, the second person re-raises 2x my initial bet. My gut reaction is to assume that I am dealing with 2 other people with top 10 hands and that I am not going to be able to to much to push them away apart from following up with an all-in push. I push all-in, person 1 folds and person 2 calls and shows AA.

Based on the scenario above, if I get KK and somebody has AA, it instantly means I am going to be either crippled or knocked out of the tournament. Without flaming me, what am I doing wrong and what can I do to save some of my stack from this sort of devastatingly bad luck?

---

I think the mistake is raising 3x the bb preflop. If it's a tournament, you start with... 1500 chips or so and blinds are 5/10 or 10/20. 3x being $30 to $60. Isn't a lot. I believe in live tourneys about 5x bb is standard. In Dan Harrington's series he says for on-line, raise about 7x the bb.

Interesting stuff so far. I seem to be getting the general consensus that I am just way to concerned about the what-if and also that I need to start exerting more strength in my poker play. I have almost always used a 3xBB standard mostly because it was one of the first poker-related tips I ever received.

Thanks for the advice guys, keep it coming and good luck out there :)

Didnt really read all all the replies. If its early stahes you are playing pretty deep so dont really need to shove pre. Especially if you consider that your opponets arent going to fold A10-AK, which happens from time to time. It may be better off to flat it and see a flop. As you are playing deep if its not a scary board and its raised to you, You can re raise and see where you stand. Plus the great scenario of a K high flop you are getting paid by AA. Then theres also the way that AK-A10 will fold on a non A flop. Whereas if you get all in pre that A might come on turn or river.

You said it was early stages so by no means are you in any need for a double up. I cant fault you for going all in pre with KK as you are only beaten by 1 hand. But i find it a common problem, myself included that you almost are sure by the betting you are up against AA but still in some sense do a spite shove or spite call only to see your read was correct. Dont get me wrong folding KK preflop is never a profitable play. But just because you have KK doesnt mean you have to get it all in pre.

As has been stated, your initial raise is your problem here. Unless you are one of these ever-min-raisers, which are inevitably losing players in the micros, then your smallest raise should be 3BB + 1 BB per limper. And that is the smallest. I tend to do 4BB until I am sure that it isn't a table of chasers. After that, everything is standard. He re-raised you min, because he wants you to stay in the hand while getting more money in. You have to fear his min re-raise could be AA, in which case you still have a 20% chance (your theory of being crippled or out is only 80% correct, as you will still win 20% of the time with KK vs AA). You go all-in which is always a good play with KK if you think you will get called. Seriously, usually you are a winner here, don't fret too much. As you move up stakes, I like Prawney's approach of flatting and seeing what the flop shows, but when there is no Ace which is highly likely since your opponent has 2 already, you are still going to lose a big part of your stack. It's not about how you played it or how you could have played it differently (although that might have helped here), it's about the fact that you were dealt KK when somebody else had AA. It happens and you are probably gonna lose money when it does.

Something tells me I should have been posting more questions here so I can improve my play. Thanks again! I need to learn how to play poker...

guys mtt are great on hero so many freerolls all day long go join if u can

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gefishy

Something tells me I should have been posting more questions here so I can improve my play. Thanks again! I need to learn how to play poker...

---

LOL you did well last night just shy of final table!! Advice is always a good way to improve, nice thread

i think a large pre-flop raise with a caller or re-raise back to you would give you better info on the hand they have 3Xbb just doesnt really scare anybody

This is why poker is great, because there really isn't a RIGHT was to do something, but consider some things...
-I agree a larger raise is nes. but even if you do the situation would be the same so that doesnt really help for this hand...
-How deep are the stacks? Is it a Turbo? In a turbo tournament pushing may be a smaller mistake here...
-If you push in this situation... what do you expect to call? Most premium hands in this spot will fold, especially early, and those who won't will almost certainly have A or worse AA... pushing pre doesnt seem like the best way to bring chips.

I think a call would be best, and then see what happens on the flop. Certainly a fold pre seems like a scared and foolish thing to do.

agree, pushing with KK acceptable, if u wont shove with that hand, whats the point of playing tournaments,stick to cash games

Two schools of thought: 1) it's a cooler and you're suppose to get all the money in pre-flop. As bmeelneg said, in the long run it's the right move. 2) imo given the scenario early in tourney and not knowing how people play, i would have just called his 3-bet as you had position. with the button, you have much more control of the pot and can see how he's playing post flop. If he's willing to limp with AA pre-flop, I would assume he would try and slow play post if the flop wasn't too much of a threat to him. Guess what I'm trying to say is that given your position on the button you could have possibly gotten away from the Kings or not bust completely.

I always play it no matter what. All in if I have to.

what up

whats cracken

Nothing much crackin. You? LOL

Trying to make points here. Here is 5 for posting. LOL

I always play KK preflop no matter what.

Always play KK preflop no matter what. You have to.

I would never ever ever ever fold KK preflop no matter what.

with kk its ok what you do pre, limp, min raige utg, re raise, its hte flop that matters. all you have to do is avoid an ace.

i dont thinki have everwon with kk, i usually will foldkk unlessimheads up

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jerseytime

with kk its ok what you do pre, limp, min raige utg, re raise, its hte flop that matters. all you have to do is avoid an ace.

---

I don't know how many times I've been heads up against pocket AA with my pocket kings...I usually know it too before the flop comes

Its not easy to fold KK preflop. But if you get those Big reraise you could be sure an A is in his Hand. So its your decide to risk your complete Tourney with KK. Not easy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bastian2607

Its not easy to fold KK preflop. But if you get those Big reraise you could be sure an A is in his Hand. So its your decide to risk your complete Tourney with KK. Not easy

---

Yea I know what you mean...Seen it in a live deep stack tournament the other day..Guy had AK and raised it pre and another guy reraised it with Kings and the AK went all in...and the Kings thought for a little bit and then called and his kings held up

Raise it PF, if it has been raised before you maybe 3 bet it depending on the raiser. If an Ace hits the flop, I would still Cbet, sometimes you are ahead and it was JJ, QQ whatever in to see the flop and they will fold. Be prepared to let it go though if you get re-raised.

i agree gotta raise pre-flop and bet flop even with the A on the flop only way to find out where your at in the hand can fold to a big raise after

i dont think iu ever would fold kk . I have folded qq a few times preflop. I have obv fold ak. But i have never folded kk or aa reflop

has zab added a minimum character limit for posts to get 5 points

If I'm in your situation and I get pocket kings, I try to get it all in preflop. If you run into pocket aces, so be it, but usually your opponents will call with a lot less like Ace-Rag or even King-Queen, not to mention any pocket pair lower than Kings. Also, if you have many limpers, you should be raising it more than 3 times the bet.