I'm wondering how wide my range should be when completing in SB and callin min raises in BB. The stakes are $.02/$0.4 and there is constant min raising which presents spots where i have marginal cards but crazy pot odds in excess of 7-1.
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I'm wondering how wide my range should be when completing in SB and callin min raises in BB. The stakes are $.02/$0.4 and there is constant min raising which presents spots where i have marginal cards but crazy pot odds in excess of 7-1.
personally i wouldnt bet on anything for a while (except premium hands) until u get a feel for the players on the table, there will be 3 catagorys serious grinders donks and people like yourself, you can usually spot which these are early on and with this info can pick your spots betterQuote:
Originally Posted by mpulsive07
i believe that on cash tables it is less about the hand and more the player due to the fact that there is no pressure considering blinds never increase, play when you are confident and avoid shoving pre if you can help it
I personally Believe that your range should be somewhere between 20 to 30% completing the SB and 20 to 30% at least min raising outta the SB if you are first to come in.
If you Hand justifies the pot odds in the BB i would call the min raise ie giving your example 7-1 i would call all min raises where you are at least 30% to win the hand
Ppl like me? what category is that? And very rarely shovin pre
n00bs and average players, people who are venturing in for the first time etc i mean im assuming you are not a donk and if your having to ask these sorts of questions your not a serious grinder thus you are a third catagory of player the "inbetweener" you are not the only one in this sort of a positionQuote:
Originally Posted by mpulsive07
nubs nibs nabs, paepol ho suks at ds meikro bleind duno wat i sey meiself
Most of your money at the the microstakes is made from postflop not from stealing blinds preflop. What one blind is like 2c lol.
Personally, I very rarely complete the small blind so I couldn't give advice on a range. Depending on table dynamics, I would have to have suited connectors, like 4 or 5 previous callers, and a villain in the pot I feel will stack often enough when I do hit. With less limpers before you I feel that the positional disadvantage post flop, as well as having a marginal hand isn't worth the extra SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by mpulsive07
Basically the same holds true to me for calling a minbet in the BB; good implied odds hand, huge pot odds, and a villain stacking light enough post flop.
I am much more inclined to open or raise any hand that I am going to be playing in the blinds, and more likely to limp behind or call a raise when in late position preflop. In the blinds I would generally be playing much tighter due to being out of position post flop. When facing a minbet steal attempt I would tend to play a wider range, but would still be raising.
Think J-Slice has a pretty good explanation. I feel I complete SB too often with "what the hell, i might flop a boat". Sure, I might, but more often then not I'll end up with a weak pair and get too confident. Best to just let it slide unless you meet most of the requirements J-Slice suggests.Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Slice
Yeah I feel that completing the small blind in general is a leak. Of course there are times where conditions can make it a profitable play, but those times are very rare. I use to do it far too often until I reviewed my database with a profitable mid stakes player and that was one of the first leaks he found, playing too wide in the blinds without a solid reason. I tightened up in the blinds and opened up more in LP and it had a positive effect on my BB/100. I also found myself in less tough spots post flop being OOP with a marginal hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnyutah
I hear the same reasoning from poker friends (read poker fish lol) on why they are limping/completing the small blind with very marginal hands. "I have two suited cards, I could flop a flush!" Sure you can, but the odds of flopping a flush with any two suited hole cards is ~118-1. The odds of flopping a boat (using both hole cards) with a non-paired hand is ~1090-1, etc. The odds just aren't there to justify that as your sole reason for calling.
The odds of flopping a draw are much greater, but you have to know how you are going to play that draw profitably versus the different opponents in the hand. In regards to the OP, about playing in the blinds, it is going to make it very difficult to play a draw post flop having a positional disadvantage throughout the rest of the hand.
Only play strong hands in the SB, every play, you're out of position.
You really have to see how the villian has been playing and if you have a hud you can track how often he attemps to steal the blind. At such micro levels, i don't think it is worth trying stealing the blinds because more people often limp call at that level. You can try it if you are playing 6-max though, but I prefer to just widen my range, not making calls and steal attempts with ATC. Just stick to a tight game, until you get a good feel and read for the players at the table especially the 2 players to your left and right.
As far as calling a minbet from the SB, I reviewed my database and saw that I lost a lot of money from the blinds. Mainly just because I get blinded out, but also because I played too loose on the blinds, hoping to hit some crazy hand post flop. Just like J-slice said. I realized that even if I hit a set or flush postflop OOP from the SB, it is rarely profitable. You will lose more money calling loose from the blinds than you will win back later when you hit the nuts post flop. Say you have 24s, folds to you in the SB, BB minbets, you call. Flop comes 44J rainbow, what do you do?? slow play it?? If the BB hit the J, you might make some good money, but more often than not, he will have missed and you win a small pot after all those called bets you wasted for hours from the SB.
If the pot odds are insane because there are a ton of limpers, than it doesnt hurt to see the flop, but be careful when you hit a weak pair because you are oop. best of luck to you.
I tend to disagree that stealing isn't worth it at the micro stakes. You just have to know which villains are likely to fold preflop. If you are using a hud you can configure it to show fold to steal % and steal relentlessly from those players with a high value in that stat. Also double check the sample size for that particular stat, if he has only faced 3 steal attempts the stat isn't reliable. Table selection is also a huge factor, for US players there isn't much of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by tturne01
Im also not sure what you mean by more people are likely to limp call your steal attempts. Steal attempts are when you open the pot, so your not stealing if there are limpers before you. Your goal then should be to decide what range you can isolate the limpers depending on their style. My steal attempt range is very different than my range when isolating.
Having good reads for those players, 2 to either side, is huge to your success at the table. Those are the opponents you will be playing with the most at the table. That is why table selection use to be a huge part of my game, back when there were more then a couple hundred in the player pool. Getting many tables with a seat on the right of the nits and on the left of the fish was easier when there were a couple thousand.Quote:
Originally Posted by tturne01
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No need to steal in micro stakes but I wouldnt fold a lot of hands to min raises when being in the BB. A lot of the money made is from post flop where you can get other players to pay you off pretty easily. If everyone at your table is tight, then I guess its not worth calling with very marginal hands. But this is a cash game and people will usually have 50-100 bbs.
This should be your moment more passive and quiet in the game. No need to go there several hands, only the winners. Not trying to steal Blind not need. Good Luck!
To those saying stealing blinds isnt worth it at this stake, that doesnt really make sense. If you are playing with brm, stealing 4nl blinds and stealing 100nl blinds are no different. But anyways, play super tight on blinds unless you have multiple limpers in front of you and you have a chance for a big pot, but then fold as soon as u dont hit it. Its never really wrong to fold in the blinds, especially the sb, you are out of position ever time, and even if you ahve the best hand you are at a huge disadvantage.
Dont really like blind stealing unless you at least have a moderately strong hand. You've gotta steal 4/5 times to be profitable at 4nl and I feel I get called down or raised too often. Thoughts?
If you have a moderately strong hand you aren't stealing you are raising for value and hoping to be called by worse. It really depends the size of your raise to determine how often a steal has to work to be profitable, and that isn't taking into account the other advantages of stealing. Position postflop, initiative in the hand, and postflop equity.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnyutah
The previous quote is from a concept of the week post on another forum showing how often a steal has to work to be profitable. The post is a great read and I can provide it if anyone is interested.Quote:
Assuming our hand has zero postflop value (which it doesn't, of course):
- If we open to 4BB, we risk 4 to win 1.5, so we need our steal to work 73% of the time.
- If we open to 3.5BB, we risk 3.5 to win 1.5, so we need our steal to work 70% of the time.
- If we open to 3BB, we risk 3 to win 1.5, so we need our steal to work 67% of the time.
- If we open to 2.5BB, we risk 2.5 to win 1.5, so we need our steal to work 63% of the time.
- If we open to 2BB, we risk 2 to win 1.5, so we need our steal to work 57% of the time.
If you are getting flat called often when stealing you aren't stealing from the right villains. Loose passives are not who you want to steal from. You want to steal from the nits since they will be giving up so easily preflop the majority of the time and they will let you know when they have a hand, which you can then safely fold. That's why table selection is a huge factor in online poker. Sitting in the right spots at your tables (nits on your left and fish on your right) will allow you to steal relentlessly and be in position on the looser bad players.
Im surprised that so many people here say that there is no need to steal at microstakes. In my most recent database I am attempting to steal ~30% of the time when I have the opportunity. When I do attempt to steal I have a success rate of ~60%. That is from a sample size of ~30k hands.
My standard open in LP is 3x, so according to the quote above I am not showing immediate profit when stealing. However, in steal positions I am still a winning player (actually my most profitable positions, which I believe is how it should be.) That is because of a mixture of the reasons I said before. Position; I very often will have position throughout the hand and can see what actions my opponent takes before deciding on the best line for my hand. Initiative; I can often take down the pot unimproved with a standard cbet or the occasional double barrel when checked to. Postflop equity; I can sometimes flop a big hand or a big draw and have a much easier time extracting max value while in position and with initiative.
Of course, all of this is said assuming you know the hows and whys to profitable stealing. I am not telling anyone to open every BTN or CO no matter what, Im saying stealing can add a lot to your bottom line, provided you know how to do it correctly.
you most have confidents in your post play to completin sb