Limping with less than 10BB?

:confused:

I've seen this play quite a bit on certain PO FR's. I rarely do it myself, so I was wondering what was the mentality behind this sort of play. Maybe some experts on the limp play can chime in.

When shorstacked I tend to move all in at this point because I can increase my stack by more than 10% if I simply pick up the blinds. Only a monster hand or a monster stack can call 10BB pre flop. If I get called well, at least, I will have a hand that I thought was good to begin with, and I can double up.

I'm sure I'm missing something. Perhaps the reason this play exists is because its a psychological thing, it will keep aggressive players from raising with rags, and it also protects your investment, since you know only a monster can raise you since your liable to put them all in. Thus you can safely fold.

Maybe if you get a calling train, and hit the flop. Someone will pay you off.

The thing I don't get is, why would you waste more than 10% of your precious stack on a hand you don't want to get all in pre-flop. Your only going to see a precious few more hands. When you finally do pick up a great hand you will have less chips to double up with.

Then I thought. Well maybe this is a form of trap. Limp in with AA-JJ. AK-AJ. Get weaker hands to see the flop, and get paid off. I suppose the worst thing that can happen is you let K2 see a flop for free to suck out on your pocket Queens. No biggie right? Because another monster hand is probably waiting around the corner.

I do not agree with limping in with less than 10bb. If you gonna play the hand then just put it all in and let the cards fall where they may. Most pros would shove too. Not sure why you wouldn't.

The main reason everybody does this on PO FR is because of the really fast levels and so such big blinds at relatively early stages. You'll rarely see this play at around 25 players still left, but once it gets to around 14 players just want to see cheap flops with not the strongest hands like kj or q10s or something; as they dont want to fold but dont want to shove when they can make the bubble. e.g. in lots of carbon tourneys at 15 players left blinds can be 250/500, and so a player with 5k will just limp with kj as there'll be others with 2k who they want to surpass to get to the bubble.

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Originally Posted by babydrago9

The main reason everybody does this on PO FR is because of the really fast levels and so such big blinds at relatively early stages. You'll rarely see this play at around 25 players still left, but once it gets to around 14 players just want to see cheap flops with not the strongest hands like kj or q10s or something; as they dont want to fold but dont want to shove when they can make the bubble. e.g. in lots of carbon tourneys at 15 players left blinds can be 250/500, and so a player with 5k will just limp with kj as there'll be others with 2k who they want to surpass to get to the bubble.

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Gotta agree with this. It normally doesn't make sense to limp in when you're already short stacked but in a turbo tournament, it's quite common. Like the po freerolls, usually as you start to get near the final table, a big majority of everyone left is short stacked having only between 10 and 15 big blinds left.

generally people limp because they are passive.

Yes, I've seen it happen more often near the bubble, like you people say. Then once the bubble bursts it just becomes a nightmarish shit throwing contest.

Passive play is dumb though, especially near the bubble. The money is top heavy, and you have to shoot for the moon in order to get the highest ROI possible. I could understand maybe trying to fold your way to a higher pay spot maybe in a larger tournament like the WSOP if your itching for cash. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by MovingFlea

Yes, I've seen it happen more often near the bubble, like you people say. Then once the bubble bursts it just becomes a nightmarish shit throwing contest.

Passive play is dumb though, especially near the bubble. The money is top heavy, and you have to shoot for the moon in order to get the highest ROI possible. I could understand maybe trying to fold your way to a higher pay spot maybe in a larger tournament like the WSOP if your itching for cash. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

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You just have to understand that it's a freeroll so generally the plays won't be standard.

While I agree with the reasoning stated above as to WHY certain players do this often, it's still rarely the "correct" play. However, for every hand and every play there is a situation. If I have a tight image at a table where I have not limped thus far and I suddenly do limp in early position with a very short stack (<15BBs), most keen players will put me on a fairly strong hand. Of course, for it to work with consistency, I also have to show the patience to also limp those big strong pre-flop hands in the same situation.

If you only ever limp short-stacked with AK & KK+, then there is actually room to pull off a kind of open-limp bluff with a hand like 45s, a small pair, a suited A, or even JTs. For it to work, however, you really need a few conditions in place. Look to the left to make sure there aren't any uber-aggro big-stacks licking their chops looking to KO the entire table. Also make sure there aren't any short stacks for which your limp might induce a chip-grab shove. What you're looking to have happen is to have as many other limpers fall in line behind you as possible, which is what you need to speculate with those kinds of hands.

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Originally Posted by TheHaversham

While I agree with the reasoning stated above as to WHY certain players do this often, it's still rarely the "correct" play. However, for every hand and every play there is a situation. If I have a tight image at a table where I have not limped thus far and I suddenly do limp in early position with a very short stack (<15BBs), most keen players will put me on a fairly strong hand. Of course, for it to work with consistency, I also have to show the patience to also limp those big strong pre-flop hands in the same situation.

If you only ever limp short-stacked with AK & KK+, then there is actually room to pull off a kind of open-limp bluff with a hand like 45s, a small pair, a suited A, or even JTs. For it to work, however, you really need a few conditions in place. Look to the left to make sure there aren't any uber-aggro big-stacks licking their chops looking to KO the entire table. Also make sure there aren't any short stacks for which your limp might induce a chip-grab shove. What you're looking to have happen is to have as many other limpers fall in line behind you as possible, which is what you need to speculate with those kinds of hands.

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imo it doesn't matter what image u have on the table because generally most ppl in a freeroll don't care/pay attention.

Because most players in PO freerolls are fish, they will limp call a shove with 10 bb with queen high.

Limping with less then 10bb left is idiotic! You should be shot for that!

everything is situational, but generally when you are severely shortstacked its all in / fold

I actually tried this move yesterday in one of the freerolls. I had KK at the final table so I decided to limp with my 6BB from early position. I got about 2 callers behind me.

THe flop comes Ace high. The two blinds check and I put out a feeler bet of 2blinds. I get reraised so I let the hand go. Now I have 2BB left. I actually had pot odds to call but I folded it anyways.

My point is you can get in some very unusual situation by limping in shortstacked, and you might make some mistakes in later streets.

Death wish....maybe if u wake up with a big pp and your in the small blind, everyone folds to you and you wanna give the bb a chance to try and move on you or give him a chance to catch a piece of the flop and trap him but otherwise its a disaster waiting to happen.

The only time I limp is when I have one BB or less.

yeah most of time under 10 bb is all in or fold mostly unless you limp to make somebody jam but that's if you want more callers unless a small blind limp into bb

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Originally Posted by JohnnyDeepStacks

The only time I limp is when I have one BB or less.

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lol. that's a good one. I guess I do that to!

Umm yeah so never. You are either all in or fold. Nothing inbetween.

I've done it before. Late position suited connectors everyone's calling. I would probably get 3 callers at least if I shoved, but this way I can see the flop and get off of it if I hit nothing and no draws. Still if someone else shoves, more likely people will fold and I will call with less people to beat holding a good drawing hand. This is just one instance where limping with a baby stack could be of good use.

i never limp in with 10bb left, but thats just me! everyone has their own style of play! but it cracks me up when they have 3bb left and limp in LOL!! im like why even bother, just shove already!! LOL

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Originally Posted by MovingFlea

:confused:

I've seen this play quite a bit on certain PO FR's. I rarely do it myself, so I was wondering what was the mentality behind this sort of play. Maybe some experts on the limp play can chime in.

When shorstacked I tend to move all in at this point because I can increase my stack by more than 10% if I simply pick up the blinds. Only a monster hand or a monster stack can call 10BB pre flop. If I get called well, at least, I will have a hand that I thought was good to begin with, and I can double up.

I'm sure I'm missing something. Perhaps the reason this play exists is because its a psychological thing, it will keep aggressive players from raising with rags, and it also protects your investment, since you know only a monster can raise you since your liable to put them all in. Thus you can safely fold.

Maybe if you get a calling train, and hit the flop. Someone will pay you off.

The thing I don't get is, why would you waste more than 10% of your precious stack on a hand you don't want to get all in pre-flop. Your only going to see a precious few more hands. When you finally do pick up a great hand you will have less chips to double up with.

Then I thought. Well maybe this is a form of trap. Limp in with AA-JJ. AK-AJ. Get weaker hands to see the flop, and get paid off. I suppose the worst thing that can happen is you let K2 see a flop for free to suck out on your pocket Queens. No biggie right? Because another monster hand is probably waiting around the corner.

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It's almost never a good play.

I limp shove with jq all day long baby!!!!!!!!! weeeeeeeeeeeee

I'll admit, I limp in with less than 10bb. However, I will only limp in with hands that I am prepared to go all-in with. So if someone raises me I will go ahead and shove most of the time. This goes against proper strategy, but I believe in the 5-10 range I still have enough bbs to see 2 flops if I need to. So when I hit 10bb, I tighten up my range, limp sometimes and see a flop cheap. If I hit the flop or sense weakness I'll shove on the flop. If I think I'm beat, I still have another chance. 10bb is still enough in a shove that most other players won't call unless they have a super strong hand. By limping and then shoving on the flop I can build up the pot a little more. Once I hit 5bb is where I'm gonna shove anything playable.

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Originally Posted by rghy2

I'll admit, I limp in with less than 10bb. However, I will only limp in with hands that I am prepared to go all-in with. So if someone raises me I will go ahead and shove most of the time. This goes against proper strategy, but I believe in the 5-10 range I still have enough bbs to see 2 flops if I need to. So when I hit 10bb, I tighten up my range, limp sometimes and see a flop cheap. If I hit the flop or sense weakness I'll shove on the flop. If I think I'm beat, I still have another chance. 10bb is still enough in a shove that most other players won't call unless they have a super strong hand. By limping and then shoving on the flop I can build up the pot a little more. Once I hit 5bb is where I'm gonna shove anything playable.

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good strat good strat i'm gonna have to incorporate this into my arsenal doe

I think it just depends what stake your playin the small buy ins might be better off making a hand first

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Originally Posted by rghy2

I'll admit, I limp in with less than 10bb. However, I will only limp in with hands that I am prepared to go all-in with. So if someone raises me I will go ahead and shove most of the time. This goes against proper strategy, but I believe in the 5-10 range I still have enough bbs to see 2 flops if I need to. So when I hit 10bb, I tighten up my range, limp sometimes and see a flop cheap. If I hit the flop or sense weakness I'll shove on the flop. If I think I'm beat, I still have another chance. 10bb is still enough in a shove that most other players won't call unless they have a super strong hand. By limping and then shoving on the flop I can build up the pot a little more. Once I hit 5bb is where I'm gonna shove anything playable.

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You reasoning is good, but I'm not sure this wins in the long run. Here's the problem: you're opening yourself up to a lot of luck, by which I mean you will have to get lucky in order to come back from a short stack. Whereas by open shoving you will need to get lucky if called BUT you also have the added equity of when everyone folds and that right there can get you back in the game with 0 risk whatsoever. And with 5-10bbs, losing one pot, even for a limp can be enough for you to lose all your remaining fold equity.

You really need to balance a)equity when called and b)likelihood of being called and when a shove feels profitable, just go with it when you're this short.

Shoving is unexploitable.

im never limping in with less than 10bb--- I think that is a terrible play-- put your chips in the middle

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Originally Posted by jasonv12

You reasoning is good, but I'm not sure this wins in the long run. Here's the problem: you're opening yourself up to a lot of luck, by which I mean you will have to get lucky in order to come back from a short stack. Whereas by open shoving you will need to get lucky if called BUT you also have the added equity of when everyone folds and that right there can get you back in the game with 0 risk whatsoever. And with 5-10bbs, losing one pot, even for a limp can be enough for you to lose all your remaining fold equity.

You really need to balance a)equity when called and b)likelihood of being called and when a shove feels profitable, just go with it when you're this short.

Shoving is unexploitable.

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This is the basic strategy I follow, but I will still shove in the 5-10bb range depending on the situation. Really strong hands ep and good but not great hands when I'm in late position are both times I will shove. I also feel that since the "correct" play is to start shoving at 10bb, more players are likely to call a wider range against this typical play. When I follow my own strategy I become harder to read. I actually believe that more people fold to my shove at 5x then the "book" player who shoves at 10bb because they have already made the assumption that I am a nit that will let myself be blinded out waiting for a premium hand, thus I must have a premium hand.

I am going to have to get this some thought though. I watch a lot of people get knocked out shoving with 8-10 bb, but if they double they have a better chance of making a deeper run than I would waiting to shove.

As far as losing all my fold equity to a limped pot, I typically only limp in unraised or min raised pots and after that I'm either shoving or folding to a raise. I won't be calling and chasing anything down which still gives me flop fold equity and I'll take down a bigger pot at that point.

I think shoving short stacked is very exploitable, but that's just my opinion. If you had a large stack, you would only bet/raise 8-10bb with very strong hands or in very specific situations. If you're shoving short stacked you've opened up your range making it profitable for other players to open up their calling ranges and still be in a +ev spot against the short stack.

One other thing I have to consider though is that my BR is still playing very fast paced tournaments where the levels are putting everyone short stacked fairly quickly. I think my strategy works well for fast tournaments, but when you get to slower tournaments with a much longer blind structure it must take more bbs to have some fold equity. There is a huge difference in how these tournaments play out. If the avg stack is only 15-20bb, you still have fold equity at 5bb since that is 1/3-1/4 of most players stacks.

I'm kinda rambling here, but I hope I've explained my logic ok.

In turbo games ( PO FR) playing down to 5 BBs is not a bad idea, its just also not a good idea. I ONLY play down to 5 BBs if i'm on a money bubble or have a LLB.

I will confirm that OTHER ppl limping is scary in a turbo because they are obviously NOT limping atc when they have roughly ten bigs.

you'd be better shoving AK with 20-30 bigs than waiting til 5 bigs in a turbo (unless u have reasons, like min cashing or an LLB)
I will admit i have won many of PO games grinding out an LLB to 5 bigs, and then turning into a shoving mad man after my LLB is out, it is just not a good spot to be in

Lets also keep in mind that we dont want to be min casher's... we want to be WINNERS!

I shoved 10BB in early-middle position yesteryear with KQ offsuit in the freeroll. I got instacalled by AQ by the person to my left. Maybe I should have limped?

I don't think so.

There are only 5 hands in all of poker that had my hand dominated. In the unlikely hood that I do get called there's still a good chance its a flip. I get 20BB if i win and have a good chance at beating the whole field.

Limping is only acceptable if you try to squeeze your way into the money but since the pay is top heavy it doesn't make sense to limp. I mean even 1st place isin't that great of a payday.

Only way I limp here is in freeroll... Real money table im shoving. Also depending on how many pple are in the money. Etc.

You really have to see what kind of situation your in. If there is a really dead table you might want to limp every now and then. Reguardless of your chip stack.

I limp with AK AQ AJ KQ and KJ because without other cards to go with it there same as 6 7 or 9 10. Just my thought cause I been beat up alot by these hand but its almost a sure win in Late position.

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Originally Posted by rghy2

This is the basic strategy I follow, but I will still shove in the 5-10bb range depending on the situation. Really strong hands ep and good but not great hands when I'm in late position are both times I will shove. I also feel that since the "correct" play is to start shoving at 10bb, more players are likely to call a wider range against this typical play. When I follow my own strategy I become harder to read. I actually believe that more people fold to my shove at 5x then the "book" player who shoves at 10bb because they have already made the assumption that I am a nit that will let myself be blinded out waiting for a premium hand, thus I must have a premium hand.

I am going to have to get this some thought though. I watch a lot of people get knocked out shoving with 8-10 bb, but if they double they have a better chance of making a deeper run than I would waiting to shove.

As far as losing all my fold equity to a limped pot, I typically only limp in unraised or min raised pots and after that I'm either shoving or folding to a raise. I won't be calling and chasing anything down which still gives me flop fold equity and I'll take down a bigger pot at that point.

I think shoving short stacked is very exploitable, but that's just my opinion. If you had a large stack, you would only bet/raise 8-10bb with very strong hands or in very specific situations. If you're shoving short stacked you've opened up your range making it profitable for other players to open up their calling ranges and still be in a +ev spot against the short stack.

One other thing I have to consider though is that my BR is still playing very fast paced tournaments where the levels are putting everyone short stacked fairly quickly. I think my strategy works well for fast tournaments, but when you get to slower tournaments with a much longer blind structure it must take more bbs to have some fold equity. There is a huge difference in how these tournaments play out. If the avg stack is only 15-20bb, you still have fold equity at 5bb since that is 1/3-1/4 of most players stacks.

I'm kinda rambling here, but I hope I've explained my logic ok.

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Look at the math of limping. Let's say that there are ~40 players left in a PO FR and blinds are 150/300 and the ante is 25. The action is folded around to you and you are MP1 with 10bbs with a shoving hand (top 21% of ur shoving range) in a 9 handed table.

We are limping 300 to win 675. You will miss most flops and I am assuming you are folding when you flop nothing but air. So 65% of the time we fold the flop and 35% of the time we are continuing. Assuming we win 100% of the time we nail the flop, which will always not be true , but let's assume 100% in this one particular example, then that would value the call at:

(975 * 35%) - 300 = +41.25 equity on the flop

But tbh, even if you hit your hand and you're up against the SB/BB the chances of them paying you off depends varies whether they want to GII light/top pair minimum.

^In that particular example, it is +EV. However, that is assuming no one will raise after you or no one will shove. So at best you're barely +41.25 EV. Poker is all about maximizing EV and the clear answer to maximizing +EV with 10bbs in MP1 is easily a shove.

i would never limp with 10 bbs. that is just plain stupid i think.

If you have under 200bbs Limping should not be a option!

limping wiht 10 bb.. .. ALL i n no limping . That is no good. unless your playing short stack or the blinds are way up there.

limping in with 10bb is not advisable as all in will get more value for your money

Also, it would actually look stronger limping than shoving IMO generally because if you're a competent player you would only be limping with a good range that you would be prepared to call an all in with. Alas, it doesn't matter if you're play a FR because generally most players won't recognize those type of plays.

when you are low its go big or go home you cant keep getting blinded out.