can i get your opinion on this hand plz

Such a weird spot for me when this type if hand shows up. Especially a player that you know would try to make a move on ya. my bet on flop was on lower end thinking a half pot size bet would get me pot commited. should i of just checked fold to bet? anyhow ty for you thoughts.



Game started at: 2014/2/25 21:34:57
Game ID: 257899344 1000/2000 TURBO10 - $1,200 GTD MEGA STACK, Table 5 (Hold'em)
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: jvb66 (20043).
Seat 3: obamamouth (30192).
Seat 4: lilb1113 (16981).
Seat 5: TEAMNUTS (30290).
Seat 6: newdaddyhere (28174).
Seat 7: NarcoC0p (16528).
Seat 8: JohnRusso (5004).
Seat 9: Half a Yard (25142).
Player obamamouth ante (200)
Player lilb1113 ante (200)
Player TEAMNUTS ante (200)
Player newdaddyhere ante (200)
Player NarcoC0p ante (200)
Player JohnRusso ante (200)
Player Half a Yard ante (200)
Player jvb66 ante (200)
Player obamamouth has small blind (1000)
Player lilb1113 has big blind (2000)
Player obamamouth received a card.
Player obamamouth received a card.
Player lilb1113 received a card.
Player lilb1113 received a card.
Player TEAMNUTS received a card.
Player TEAMNUTS received a card.
Player newdaddyhere received card: [8c]
Player newdaddyhere received card: [8h]
Player NarcoC0p received a card.
Player NarcoC0p received a card.
Player JohnRusso received a card.
Player JohnRusso received a card.
Player Half a Yard received a card.
Player Half a Yard received a card.
Player jvb66 received a card.
Player jvb66 received a card.
Player TEAMNUTS folds
Player newdaddyhere raises (4500)
Player NarcoC0p folds
Player JohnRusso folds
Player Half a Yard folds
Player jvb66 calls (4500)
Player obamamouth calls (3500)
Player lilb1113 folds
*** FLOP ***: [4h 4d Js]
Player obamamouth checks
Player newdaddyhere bets (5700)
Player jvb66 allin (15343)
Player obamamouth folds
Player newdaddyhere folds
Uncalled bet (9643) returned to jvb66
Player jvb66 mucks cards
------ Summary ------
Pot: 28500. Rake 0
Board: [4h 4d Js]
*Player jvb66 mucks (does not show cards). Bets: 10400. Collects: 28500. Wins: 18100.
Player obamamouth does not show cards.Bets: 4700. Collects: 0. Loses: 4700.
Player lilb1113 does not show cards.Bets: 2200. Collects: 0. Loses: 2200.
Player TEAMNUTS does not show cards.Bets: 200. Collects: 0. Loses: 200.
Player newdaddyhere does not show cards.Bets: 10400. Collects: 0. Loses: 10400.
Player NarcoC0p does not show cards.Bets: 200. Collects: 0. Loses: 200.
Player JohnRusso does not show cards.Bets: 200. Collects: 0. Loses: 200.
Player Half a Yard does not show cards.Bets: 200. Collects: 0. Loses: 200.
Game ended at: 2014/2/25 21:36:55

GO with gut and call you already had half your chips in you bubbled didn't ya

Im guessing he figured you missed the flop with AK AQ or possibly mid PP and were c-betting (bluffing) the flop to scoop it. SO he may of had J...he definently would of 3 bet you pre with a big pocket pair. He only flatted pre so could of had AJ or some other big paint

no like 17 away or somethg maybe more. But yeah I did have almost half in I thought thee was chance of Aj but yeah these are the hands that get me alot.

and before I bet the flop I thought to myself that size bet could look like i missed thus making him push since he weakness. being after late reg. ended play tighten upped and those raises we're working for me.

OMG shove pre-flop d3wd. You have 14bbs and there are antes. You have 4 stacks behind you that have fewer chips than you as well, so if you get UL and someone wakes up with a monster and you lose you still have a shove spot to get back to being relevant again. You can't play passively man... if you sit around another orbit you lose any fold equity you have left.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sickread23

OMG shove pre-flop d3wd. You have 14bbs and there are antes. You have 4 stacks behind you that have fewer chips than you as well, so if you get UL and someone wakes up with a monster and you lose you still have a shove spot to get back to being relevant again. You can't play passively man... if you sit around another orbit you lose any fold equity you have left.

---

Yeah - I get frustrated with the folks who WAY overplay a mid-pair preflop EVERY time they get one, but in this case, sick is right - look at your stack, the blinds and antes and the table layout. This was probably the time to shove preflop and take it down. Some dumbasses will call you anyway with just AJ (seen it over and over), but anyone with sense will fold that crap to a pre shove.

Fold:)

looking at blinds ante, ur Mvalues is like 4 here. pretty much pot committed from PF betting standards.

Edit: 5.83333

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sickread23

OMG shove pre-flop d3wd. You have 14bbs and there are antes. You have 4 stacks behind you that have fewer chips than you as well, so if you get UL and someone wakes up with a monster and you lose you still have a shove spot to get back to being relevant again. You can't play passively man... if you sit around another orbit you lose any fold equity you have left.

---

+1

I think you should have made a larger pre-flop bet, but I'm ok with your fold. I don't think a larger flop bet would have made a difference as far as the 3 bet goes. And in my experience, when someone shows any aggression on a paired board, they have something. And your hand is weak enough, it's unlikely you can beat anything your opponent holds.

OMG shove pre-flop d3wd. You have 14bbs and there are antes. You have 4 stacks behind you that have fewer chips than you as well, so if you get UL and someone wakes up with a monster and you lose you still have a shove spot to get back to being relevant again. You can't play passively man... if you sit around another orbit you lose any fold equity you have left.

I have to agree with this.

yea, this was either an all in or fold pre moment. i woulda folded. poker is about waiting for good spots, and 14 BBs OOP w/ 88 IS NOT a good spot

just shove it in and go for it.hell what have you got to lose you may hit your out card and win the pot.













BEE Beep Gone

do the PO thing, shove and pray

If I have mid pocket pair and I am first out of the gate I would either just call, (that way if a big bet comes out I can see who thinks they have the nuts), then I have one decision to make, I either call and take the chance of my cards not hitting the flop and feeling forced to make a bet...or I fold and keep my chips for a better hand. If you are losing at these types of hands right now maybe if you should give them a rest for a while...just a thought.

agree with sickread23

Push-or-fold scenario here with your hand. Depending on the players behind me, I might fold 88 preflop - but I would never raise that much of my stack and be stuck out of position with a tough hand to play post-flop

yea you gotta shove preflop

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PokeYourFace

yea, this was either an all in or fold pre moment. i woulda folded. poker is about waiting for good spots, and 14 BBs OOP w/ 88 IS NOT a good spot

---

Its a fold pre I agree.

just calm down and let the cards work for you wait on the next hand or 2 to fall maybe by then the cards have changed and you will get a much deserved hand something that may be profitable.

Studying Harrington on Hold'em M factor will help you to better understand where your at with your stack.

The M-Concept was introduced by Dan Harrington in his book "Harrington on Hold'em - Volume II: The Endgame".

This system is called the M-factor, Magriel's M, often simply called "M" by many players.

The criteria to calculate your M is as follows:

( Stack / ( BB + SB + ( Ante * Players ) ) ). In words its Your stack divided by big blind plus small blind Plus antes. Remember when you include the antes is the ante multiplied by then number of players at your table. So in your case the ante is 200. You would multiply 200 by 8 players at your table. 200 multiplied by 8 is 1600. So your formula would go like this:

28,174 divided by 2000 + 1000 + 1600 = YOUR M

Again thats:

( 28,174 / ( 2000 + 1000 + ( 200 * 8 ) ) ) = Your M 6.12

Its important to keep recalculating your M as the blind and ante levels change. So currently thats your M. But if there is only 5 mins to next blind level you will want to recalculate it.

Now The Zones For Your M:

Green Zone (M = + 20)

All your basic play is available to you.

Yellow Zone (M = 10 to 20)

Small pairs and suited connectors are less useful as you are no longer getting good implied odds (chance of winning a huge pot from a small outlay).

Orange Zone (M = 6-10)

You have lost the ability to "re-steal", you have be picking up the blinds of the weaker players while avoiding the big stacks.

Red Zone (M = 2-6)

Here you almost have no option but to go "all in" or fold. Make sure you're first to enter the pot to give your opponent some fold equity.

Dead Zone (M = 0-2)

Calling is no longer an option. If nobody has opened the pot, you might as well go all-in with any two cards.


Lets go a bit further in depth on how each zone should be played:

Green zone
You are in the comfort zone. Just keep playing premium hands in position and you're fine for the moment. Try to find the right balance to make the most out of pots and limit your contribution to pots when you lose.

Yellow zone
In the yellow zone, your main focus is to get back to the green zone, thus taking risks by playing more aggressive. Don't be a fool though, know when you're beat!

Orange zone
This is where the trouble starts. Your starting hand requirements are less tight. Start making some moves to pick up blinds when you're in position. You will be checking and calling more often than betting, as your stack doesn't allow you to bet enough to chase players out of a hand.

Red zone
Calling or betting will make you committed, so better wait for the first Ace or King and move all-in when first to act. You can expect to be called, as players will be eager to eliminate you. This gives you a decent chance to double, triple or even quadruple up and get you back in the orange zone.

Dead zone
Calling is no longer an option. If nobody has opened the pot, you might as well go all-in with any two cards. Who knows, maybe Lady Luck is on your side.

So Finally Your M calculated In This Instance Is:

( 28,174 / ( 2000 + 1000 + ( 200 * 8 ) ) ) = Your M 6.12 = Orange Zone borderline Red Zone

You should be all in or fold but I would opt to fold in this spot. Hope this helps better. Calculating your M becomes easy once you get used to it. Also don't forget to check and see when next blind level is (how much time till next blind level) and re-calculate often. Good Luck.

If you practice this calculation often enough, it will become second nature and you will just know without calculating approximately what your M is and how you should be playing at that level with your stack size. Again GL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnnyDeepStacks

Studying Harrington on Hold'em M factor will help you to better understand where your at with your stack.

The M-Concept was introduced by Dan Harrington in his book "Harrington on Hold'em - Volume II: The Endgame".

This system is called the M-factor, Magriel's M, often simply called "M" by many players.

The criteria to calculate your M is as follows:

( Stack / ( BB + SB + ( Ante * Players ) ) ). In words its Your stack divided by big blind plus small blind Plus antes. Remember when you include the antes is the ante multiplied by then number of players at your table. So in your case the ante is 200. You would multiply 200 by 8 players at your table. 200 multiplied by 8 is 1600. So your formula would go like this:

28,174 divided by 2000 + 1000 + 1600 = YOUR M

Again thats:

( 28,174 / ( 2000 + 1000 + ( 200 * 8 ) ) ) = Your M 6.12

Its important to keep recalculating your M as the blind and ante levels change. So currently thats your M. But if there is only 5 mins to next blind level you will want to recalculate it.

Now The Zones For Your M:

Green Zone (M = + 20)

All your basic play is available to you.

Yellow Zone (M = 10 to 20)

Small pairs and suited connectors are less useful as you are no longer getting good implied odds (chance of winning a huge pot from a small outlay).

Orange Zone (M = 6-10)

You have lost the ability to "re-steal", you have be picking up the blinds of the weaker players while avoiding the big stacks.

Red Zone (M = 2-6)

Here you almost have no option but to go "all in" or fold. Make sure you're first to enter the pot to give your opponent some fold equity.

Dead Zone (M = 0-2)

Calling is no longer an option. If nobody has opened the pot, you might as well go all-in with any two cards.


Lets go a bit further in depth on how each zone should be played:

Green zone
You are in the comfort zone. Just keep playing premium hands in position and you're fine for the moment. Try to find the right balance to make the most out of pots and limit your contribution to pots when you lose.

Yellow zone
In the yellow zone, your main focus is to get back to the green zone, thus taking risks by playing more aggressive. Don't be a fool though, know when you're beat!

Orange zone
This is where the trouble starts. Your starting hand requirements are less tight. Start making some moves to pick up blinds when you're in position. You will be checking and calling more often than betting, as your stack doesn't allow you to bet enough to chase players out of a hand.

Red zone
Calling or betting will make you committed, so better wait for the first Ace or King and move all-in when first to act. You can expect to be called, as players will be eager to eliminate you. This gives you a decent chance to double, triple or even quadruple up and get you back in the orange zone.

Dead zone
Calling is no longer an option. If nobody has opened the pot, you might as well go all-in with any two cards. Who knows, maybe Lady Luck is on your side.

So Finally Your M calculated In This Instance Is:

( 28,174 / ( 2000 + 1000 + ( 200 * 8 ) ) ) = Your M 6.12 = Orange Zone borderline Red Zone

You should be all in or fold but I would opt to fold in this spot. Hope this helps better. Calculating your M becomes easy once you get used to it. Also don't forget to check and see when next blind level is (how much time till next blind level) and re-calculate often. Good Luck.

If you practice this calculation often enough, it will become second nature and you will just know without calculating approximately what your M is and how you should be playing at that level with your stack size. Again GL

---

Excellent post!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnnyDeepStacks

Studying Harrington on Hold'em M factor will help you to better understand where your at with your stack.

The M-Concept was introduced by Dan Harrington in his book "Harrington on Hold'em - Volume II: The Endgame".

This system is called the M-factor, Magriel's M, often simply called "M" by many players.

The criteria to calculate your M is as follows:

( Stack / ( BB + SB + ( Ante * Players ) ) ). In words its Your stack divided by big blind plus small blind Plus antes. Remember when you include the antes is the ante multiplied by then number of players at your table. So in your case the ante is 200. You would multiply 200 by 8 players at your table. 200 multiplied by 8 is 1600. So your formula would go like this:

28,174 divided by 2000 + 1000 + 1600 = YOUR M

Again thats:

( 28,174 / ( 2000 + 1000 + ( 200 * 8 ) ) ) = Your M 6.12

Its important to keep recalculating your M as the blind and ante levels change. So currently thats your M. But if there is only 5 mins to next blind level you will want to recalculate it.

Now The Zones For Your M:

Green Zone (M = + 20)

All your basic play is available to you.

Yellow Zone (M = 10 to 20)

Small pairs and suited connectors are less useful as you are no longer getting good implied odds (chance of winning a huge pot from a small outlay).

Orange Zone (M = 6-10)

You have lost the ability to "re-steal", you have be picking up the blinds of the weaker players while avoiding the big stacks.

Red Zone (M = 2-6)

Here you almost have no option but to go "all in" or fold. Make sure you're first to enter the pot to give your opponent some fold equity.

Dead Zone (M = 0-2)

Calling is no longer an option. If nobody has opened the pot, you might as well go all-in with any two cards.


Lets go a bit further in depth on how each zone should be played:

Green zone
You are in the comfort zone. Just keep playing premium hands in position and you're fine for the moment. Try to find the right balance to make the most out of pots and limit your contribution to pots when you lose.

Yellow zone
In the yellow zone, your main focus is to get back to the green zone, thus taking risks by playing more aggressive. Don't be a fool though, know when you're beat!

Orange zone
This is where the trouble starts. Your starting hand requirements are less tight. Start making some moves to pick up blinds when you're in position. You will be checking and calling more often than betting, as your stack doesn't allow you to bet enough to chase players out of a hand.

Red zone
Calling or betting will make you committed, so better wait for the first Ace or King and move all-in when first to act. You can expect to be called, as players will be eager to eliminate you. This gives you a decent chance to double, triple or even quadruple up and get you back in the orange zone.

Dead zone
Calling is no longer an option. If nobody has opened the pot, you might as well go all-in with any two cards. Who knows, maybe Lady Luck is on your side.

So Finally Your M calculated In This Instance Is:

( 28,174 / ( 2000 + 1000 + ( 200 * 8 ) ) ) = Your M 6.12 = Orange Zone borderline Red Zone

You should be all in or fold but I would opt to fold in this spot. Hope this helps better. Calculating your M becomes easy once you get used to it. Also don't forget to check and see when next blind level is (how much time till next blind level) and re-calculate often. Good Luck.

If you practice this calculation often enough, it will become second nature and you will just know without calculating approximately what your M is and how you should be playing at that level with your stack size. Again GL

---

I think most people would actually shove in this spot. It's a turbo tourney so he needs to double sooner than later and pocket 8s is an excellent hand to shove pre. It only has to go through 6 players and usually you'll be flipping than being dominated. If everyone folds then he increases his stack by over 15%