There should be a law against it

OK

So im in the PStars $10 Freeroll, playing good ABC poker and really catch any hands i could do anything with other than treading water.

Good TAG style and we get down from 50 to 11 handed

I am seriously short stacked, like 2.8k vs 10k everywhere.

I hit TT in middle position so i come in for a small raise which gets called, fairly sure i am up against calling hands

So the board comes with a Q as the only paint

Late position checks to me

I have a decision to make here, the Blinds are at 200, shortly increasing and my 12-15BB stack is going to seriously become reduced.

I decide to go All in, the chances of me being beat are there, Qx or AA, KK, JJ but i saw a spot and i took it.

I got shut down by a Queen and thats life (the player in question had QJo, why he was in the hand even on a limp is probably down to the stack sizes more than anything)

OK, so getting beat - thats fine



What I dont appreciate is the FISH calls from the table because I went All in against the overpair.
Sure, it wasnt the best action but it wasnt as if i was making this move with a heavy stack. I was short stack, had barely over 10BB and was soon going to have to pick my shove spot anyway so thought that was a nice gamble.

The fact is that im not a fish. I play good poker and each player at that table saw me play with top hands and nice tight play.

I don't appreciate the riddicule and since this is essentially a community where we are the ones that play these freerolls, the people I am speaking about could even be reading this post.

Even if they aren't, the point has to be made... Table abuse that is both inaccurate and rude is just not needed.

Yes, the fish that goes All in with 72 or calls your feeding bets through a minefield of overcards with his pair of 2s, lucks out on the river to make his set meanwhile your high hand gets cracked because to put him on such a fish hand is impossible to predict.

Donkeys, fishes (fish?) are in the game... sure. But if you notice a TAG player, doing his best to get ahead and ends up short stacked with very low BB/stack ratio, if he takes a gamble and it doesnt pay off, its not a fish play. Its not nice, its not ideal but its not a fish play.

The size of your stack has a serious effect on what hands you go in on and what risks you take.
Anyone that has placed often and well in Hyper Turbos knows what i mean


All i can imagine is that the people in question (i wont name names) were either being rude for the sake of it or they didn't see the poker behind the move, either way I expected more from a smaller nit group of freerollers.

Sure, the Bankroll Mob FR, fish city and if i suck out or even get abused i can take it but i expected more from you guys


For shame!

im with the otherguy ure hand was dead the minute the Q dropped, small raise, or check woulda been better QJ whilst not brilliant is callable for a limp u deserved the ridicule man up and take it

LOL nice to continue the abuse..

Sure the call might not have been the best but is trying to insult me as a beginner player (aka FISH) really the way to go

Just insult the call, tell me that i made a bad call


Small raise there would have indeed got me out of the hand, thinking back sure it might have been a better move but come on, i had 1/5 of my chips in on a simple 2 Bet, i was extremely short stacked and no way i would have made that move with a stronger stack.


The point i was trying to get to is that insulting someone inaccurately is just bad sportsmanship

Want to call my move bad, fine
Want to call me a fish... think again mate

EDIT : It is not like i am looking for support from the chatbox for a bad beat, just that to riddicule someone for making a bad move with extremely limited options is a bit harsh. Just call the bet as bad. Thinking back the small bet might have been a better option but i wanted to put a semi-bluff out there as well. My play was extremely tight, i raised into the pot and i could easily have had AQ or even worse the other 2 Q's.

Whilst bluffing the larger stack is not the best move, i believed i had the fold equity to make the move


bottom line : insult the move not me

ok, if im reading this right all he did was call you a fish...right...dude look in the chat being called a fish/donk is the least of your worries, and besides you said ureself that the move you made was a bad one thus calling you a fish is about right, its the internet its a harsh place if your gunna get insulted over this id turn off your modem, seriously get a grip

my advice to you to is don't be possesive with any card means any card( aa,kk,ak,aq,kq,...), and say no to bluffing and have patience in every situation and never take you loss in to your head it hearts.

yeah...sorry bro...but your hand was indeed dead with that Q on table, your nuts would had been another 10.........;)

I rarely bluff, was on a semi bluff to either put myself on the Q for others but also that i didnt rate anyone having it

Like i said before, not defending the move... it could have been better and i doubt there is a single one of us that hasnt made a bad play once in awhile and got punnished for it.

I also do have a thick enough skin that aside from a tiny bit of venting on this forum, i dont care that much
I really just expected a bit more class and consideration for a small members-only freeroll

Perhaps i expected too much

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Originally Posted by wlmartin

I rarely bluff, was on a semi bluff to either put myself on the Q for others but also that i didnt rate anyone having it

Like i said before, not defending the move... it could have been better and i doubt there is a single one of us that hasnt made a bad play once in awhile and got punnished for it.

I also do have a thick enough skin that aside from a tiny bit of venting on this forum, i dont care that much
I really just expected a bit more class and consideration for a small members-only freeroll

Perhaps i expected too much

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yeah you did sounds like ure doin nowt but whine from this end

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Originally Posted by Swittie

yeah...sorry bro...but your hand was indeed dead with that Q on table, your nuts would had been another 10.........;)

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Indeed... thinking back Azreals advise of a small bet would have been better. Chances are that i wouldnt have been trapped since both of the other 2 larger stacks at the table were in and they would have played at each other but either way a raise or a queen would have given me the information i needed.

Sometimes a good info bet can get you off a hand but i was so short stacked, i dont think an A or K on that board would have thrown me off it. Would possibly have been better for me to move all in from the start as i would have got the laydowns i needed

Either way, you lives and learns... not here to moan that i got bad-beat or that the move was 100% ABC poker but the fish calls were just uncalled for is all

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Originally Posted by azreal1

yeah you did sounds like ure doin nowt but whine from this end

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A good vent can do wonders to clear the pipes ;)

Boy this is to funny, its poker anything can happen and everyone over reacts on both side, just play and learn

Im' still a little new. Sorry if I'm not much help. I do enjoy the forum and seem to be getting familiar with it slowly, hope everyone enjoys there time here.

yep all we can do is keep playing

I can't play on Poker Stars but it wouldn't be poker if everyone made their hand as for fish go on juicey stakes poker winning free rolls is never easy playing razz is.

I'm trying to figure out exactly what there should be a law against based on the OP.

If your going to shove with an over card on the board than you shouda just shoved pre flop. especially with the stack sizes and blinds the way they were. Small raise pre there just not smart. Doesn't mean your a fish though. We ALL make poor decisions at one time or another. GL in the future and don't let the "trolls" get to ya.

lol thats funny

there should be a law about peeps who think the best hand pre will win all the time when playing online poker

i guess anything can happen. of course, i dont even know what im talking about because i didnt read the original post

The worst is when you get a table with a huuuge fish and he gets lucky a couple times then the relentless attack of words for his bad play forces the most profitable person at the table to leave. Please, fish are from whom you make your money. Berating them and forcing them to leave is completely -EV.

Not saying that is the case here but its something I see (well used to see when I was playing everyday) and makes absolutely no sense.

There are so many stories but remember you are in a freeroll, so hands that are mediocre are played often....

I believe the players that are the most vocal in these situations tend to be the real fish and donks. Just look at Phil Helmuth ;)

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Originally Posted by ssuglia

I'm trying to figure out exactly what there should be a law against based on the OP.

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I believe he is saying there should be a law against inaccurately insulting people at the tables. I think there should be a law against insulting people at the table period. We could call it, being a grown up. ;)

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Originally Posted by Paisleysky

I believe he is saying there should be a law against inaccurately insulting people at the tables. I think there should be a law against insulting people at the table period. We could call it, being a grown up. ;)

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and ssugs point is the same as mine, calling someone a "fish" or a "donkey" isnt really something to get bent out of shape about imo

maybe next time just shove ur 10s preflop and try to get the QJo to fold instead. If he calls then he is the fish even tho your are short stacked and raising with a wide range of hands. In theory you would of got a few GGs insted of ridicule. MAYBE lol this forum seems to be tough on its fellow players.

even if you shove pre your not going to get a donkey to fold!! The call isnt that bad but manners around here are. Its sad when even mods jump in on ya just to ridicule or be condescending. But thats who Zab has in place here. Most are very nice(mods). Youd think playing from a community like this people would have some manners but it seems most are lost and need to degrade someone for the sake of self worth. Pathetic really!!

I don't think the play was bad. Those who are referencing the Q making his hand dead are being too results oriented. In that hand there is no way you can tell your opponent definitely has a queen. I'm a little lost at this point because you say you are middle position but then post flop you say late position checks to you. That's not possible so who called your bet? This is important in determining hand ranges.

With 1 over card on the flop you are in a tough spot when checked to. If you check behind you are giving away a free card, but to bet will leave you pot committed. I think in this spot you need to take the chance and shove. Your opponents range is pretty wide with a minimal raise unless you have a read contrary.

The fish comments are just internet BS. I wouldn't worry about it. You have nothing to prove to any of them. Plus it's a freeroll, not the WSOP none of the other players are Ivey.

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Originally Posted by ecpopp

Boy this is to funny, its poker anything can happen and everyone over reacts on both side, just play and learn

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Indeed and every bad call i make (im no Daniel Negrano of course!) is going to generate some solid learning tips.
We can all have trouble making reads and getting off a hand with overcards and thankfully for the times when we have the best of it, this means we get someone over playing their hand

I remember hearing something once and its one of my favorite sayings/phrases in poker

"Appreciate your good folds and celebrate your laydowns"

Young/New players will fold K2o and see it come up 22K on the board and come up with the thought that they should have bet big to win big on that board. They focus on that and end up adjusting their game to be looser which is the wrong thing to look at.

If you play good TAG style and are playing only 1 premium hand each 1-2 blind rounds, you will often find you laid down an OK pair of cards that your position could have even let you go in on and you decided that it wasnt the right call.

You then see the pot go crazy with chips and you see from the showdown that you were beat from the start. At that point you should appreciate the fold.

Next is the laydown. If you have AA and the board comes KK and you know your opponent only bets premium hands and you re-raised his heavy 5BB raise (which he called), you put him on top 4 cards (so AA, KK, AK, QQ).

Chances are he hasnt made his Quads so the only thing he could be beat you with is AK. You bet into him nice and solidly with a C-Bet which he rains back at you with an overbet.

In this spot he is representing the other K and is asking you to believe he either has KK or AK. He isnt afraid of your C-Bet so must be putting you on AA's, QQs or JJs to bet strongly.

So you take the nudge and put yourself off the hand.

He shows AK and you read your Laydown correctly... at this point celebrate!!


Too many people focus on not having made a bad call to win a large bet.
Instead you should focus on all the large bets you avoid throwing into the pot at crap hands and trust me, you will see some numbers!

Its best always not to be results orientated.
If you make the best play, perhaps even laydown a monster believing your opponent to have the better hand and he shows you rags.. and it comes out very bad or you put your money in the middle and get sucked out, dont focus on that.

If you call a raise with anything other than top 4 hands, you are gambling
If you call a re-raise with anything other than top 2 hands, if you believe your opponent to be playing straight up without a bluff then you are gambling


The point is that getting off a hand is one of the hardest things for poker players to learn especially when with a tight style you only get to play every 7 hands or so, you want to make each one count.

Best rule of thumb is, if your opponents hand is telling a story and that story holds up, fold if you feel you are beaten.
Always put your customer on a hand, even if it is just betting the top pair. If you feel your hand is strong or will become strong with the next 2 cards, stay in the hand for the best price you feel it is worth (either betting it for value or checking it for a draw). If you can with their image, betting information and cards to hand put them on something you are beaten with... you are odds on to be beaten and its best to get away as cheap as possible from the hand as you can.

Sure, people bluff and you will always, always get caught in a bluff but it is FAR better to get caught in a bluff and be mocked for being too weak than to assume you always have the best of it regardless of clear signals the opponent gives you and commit to feeding his stack.


My error in the game was that i put my need to get out of the short stack spot to a higher importance than putting my opponent on a hand. I didn't let him push me off it with his QQs and should have given him the chance to and a simple information bet or check would have done the job.

I learnt from my mistake and will work better at my reads in the future but regardless the need to call any player who you beat a fish is a bit bad. I have myself calmed down on fish-calling however if i go into the Hand History and see that my opponent mucked a VERY weak hand and bet into me with nothing, not even a pair or a draw... i can't help but fire up the fish call

is a free world.. a freedom to speak... so you don`t have to take it so personally if someone call`s you a fish... you know what you can do.. i wish player call me a fish and go after me and take all chips from them... sometimes is good that some1 thing you are a fish.. because it calls you more often then a player who thinks you play tied ... think of this..

i win 2 days before 10 $ freeroll on pokerstars and i finish 6 th on the second one , the administartor blocked me " Zab " an know i can t accumulate my point to participate on it ...why cauze i play good poker !!!!!!

really i will write about what happen to me everywhere ....pokerowned never will be famous with all that restriction.

Morocanwave
i found a new one : railbird.

i post there about this site .

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Originally Posted by kingkowboys

I don't think the play was bad. Those who are referencing the Q making his hand dead are being too results oriented. In that hand there is no way you can tell your opponent definitely has a queen. I'm a little lost at this point because you say you are middle position but then post flop you say late position checks to you. That's not possible so who called your bet? This is important in determining hand ranges.

With 1 over card on the flop you are in a tough spot when checked to. If you check behind you are giving away a free card, but to bet will leave you pot committed. I think in this spot you need to take the chance and shove. Your opponents range is pretty wide with a minimal raise unless you have a read contrary.

The fish comments are just internet BS. I wouldn't worry about it. You have nothing to prove to any of them. Plus it's a freeroll, not the WSOP none of the other players are Ivey.

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Yeah... Well one important thing that i missed from it was that i was MP, i could put the guy behind me on no Queen but the guy the guy behind me had yet to act and to be safe considering that a) I was short stacked b) I had poor position I should have done what Azreal said and got some information.

If i min bet it and got called, yes, i could have easily been led into a trap (less likely with one other player in it) and at that point it would be safe to say my hand was played well. The fact is i neglected to take the advantage of making the info bet in my rush to try and get more chips and my shove was premature.

So in summary there are 2 key things i should have done

1) Shoved from the start, the Q* would have not gone in with me since he had to act before the next guy and, and i reckon the other guy would have folded too.
2) When in, got my information and trusted that i was beat.

The fact is, a gamble here makes perfect sense if i have only 1 opponent and a much larger stack to his. With that he wouldnt dare call my all-in for fear he would get busted over his Q's where i could easily have KK, AA, AQ, AK with my initial raise.

lesson learned and from the start i wasnt saying it was the BEST call in the world. I regreted it after it happened and shrugged at first saying it was an OK call considering my stack sizes but going back to the thoughts of it I realized that it was a bad call and the only 2 moves i had were a shove from the start or an info bet to get a read.

Throughout it all though, i still think the fish calling was a bit bad. Had i done that fully stacked and at the start of the event then fair enough, but i was low stacked and had played proper TAG (which anyone could see with my folds and the plays i got involved in) so the fish calls were just in bad taste really

I think my point is made and the general consensus is...
1 : Try not to get bent out of shape by someone calling you names (i didnt too much)
2 : Learn from your mistakes (i try to)
3 : The manners of others are bad (i agree)

bad beat

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Originally Posted by BrandonK

bad beat

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I would like to believe that but then i would be kidding myself

All in from the flop, sure i might want to call it a BB perhaps but from the flop everything becomes equal and my odds of winning right there were poor (fairly sure i only had a set as my out, so 2 cards!) so if i had sucked out on the Queens then "THAT" would have been a bad beat for him, not me ... but i didnt suffer a bad beat because from the position i screwed myself, i was already behind

LOL fish gonna fish at those. they are mostly all crap shoots so you gotta run like god for the bigger freerolls

It seemed like you shoved post flop because you were scared. No hands that you beat are going to call you. I would cbet/fold to raise. Another option to consider is shoving pre. Especially if there are antes.